jeffreyrichard

Prop drive vs fins (hobie) ... less stress on hull?

73 posts in this topic

Do the propeller type drives put less stress on a kayak hull than the Hobie fins? The number of folks with cracks in Hobies is ... interesting ... 

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Posted (edited)

It's possible. The only stress cracks I have experienced with prop kayaks was with the Native Propel clamp fastened on the "thrawt" tube. That was an expensive repair because Native had to send you a brand new prop unit if you were in warranty, which I was. It was a week turnaround to bring back my broken drive and get a new one.

 

The Old Town PDL so far that I am aware of has no stress problems in the drive or the hull. There have been a few leaking scuppers but that wasn't stress related. We are just over the 2 year mark for the PDL since it's release. I bought mine in Sept 2016. If we see any stress it would happen by now. In my opinion so far?  Old Town has the best prop drive as far as problems go. I had nyloc nut seize up on the prop which I had to cut and re-tap but that was it. Old Town even offered to give me a new drive. For me it was just easier to fix it.

 

 Everything I have said above is documented in my reviews of both the PDL and Slayer and backed up in the threads.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by The Riddler

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The number of folks with cracks in Hobies is ... interesting ... 

This keeps being presented as a "current" issue. This is a thing of the past.

 

8-10 years ago we had a batch of failures primarily due to bad supplies of plastic. Even then the failure rate was a very small percentage of production. We make a LOT of boats. There were a lot of changes made since that time. 

 

I would not be concerned these days.

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Posted (edited)

46 mins ago, mmiller said:

This keeps being presented as a "current" issue. This is a thing of the past.

 

8-10 years ago we had a batch of failures primarily due to bad supplies of plastic. Even then the failure rate was a very small percentage of production. We make a LOT of boats. There were a lot of changes made since that time. 

 

I would not be concerned these days.

I've cracked two Revo 13 hulls. and both failed in an 8 year period. Last drive well crack was last year this month and  you guys at Hobie sent me a replacement 2018 hull I used this year. So if it's a thing of the past why are the hulls still cracking? 

 

These are facts and it's all documented here in this thread:

 

Edited by The Riddler

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Posted (edited)

Getting back to the topic of "prop" drives hulls.....I just did another round of researching and cannot find cracked hulls on prop kayaks. Displacement is displacement....it has to go somewhere. Time will tell but so far its been pretty good.

Edited by The Riddler

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We have been round and round with this. Heavier user maybe. There is a very low chance of cracking a more recent production due to the many changes we have done over the last decade.... I did not say none... We make a LOT of boats and some defects do occur in rotomolding. The point is that the rate of failure being focused on is really an old issue. Things have changed and failures are far less of an issue... very far less.  

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I just did another round of researching and cannot find cracked hulls on prop kayaks.

Apples and Oranges. Until any prop drive boats are produced in any real numbers and are used for as many years as the Hobie's being compared to... it is not comparable. I can say this... There will never be as many prop powered kayaks as there are Hobie MirageDrive powered kayaks. You can combine all of the types together and they are a VERY small fraction of what has been built by Hobie. We have the data. The advantages of the MirageDrive are huge. Props never took off as a real option.

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4 mins ago, mmiller said:

We have been round and round with this. Heavier user maybe. There is a very low chance of cracking a more recent production due to the many changes we have done over the last decade.... I did not say none... We make a LOT of boats and some defects do occur in rotomolding. The point is that the rate of failure being focused on is really an old issue. Things have changed and failures are far less of an issue... very far less.  

We can continue to go round and round. You're making statements that are just not true. We will not stand for that especially since you work for Hobie. I have several kayak to use this is not my only platform. The hull crack failure in the drivewell is not an old issue, because it keeps happening and to be fair it's not the same failure rate as 2008 and previous....but only you Matt Miller have those numbers but we only have google and what we see when talking with other kayak anglers...and so far the hull crack issues and other hobie hull leaks is still happening. These are facts.

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Posted (edited)

13 mins ago, mmiller said:

Apples and Oranges. Until any prop drive boats are produced in any real numbers and are used for as many years as the Hobie's being compared to... it is not comparable. I can say this... There will never be as many prop powered kayaks as there are Hobie MirageDrive powered kayaks. You can combine all of the types together and they are a VERY small fraction of what has been built by Hobie. We have the data. The advantages of the MirageDrive are huge. Props never took off as a real option.

Old Town PDL's and other Prop drive kayaks are out there. Native has been around the longest, over 10 years.  1000's of  prop drive kayaks are out there..who knows the true numbers....you don't know MMiller unless you spoke to Johnson Outdoors, native and confluence. Native has the cracks in drives...as already noted....nobody has a cracked hull.

 

The OP in this thread is asking a legit question about Prop Kayaks. Do you own a Prop Kayak Matt Miller?  I remember years ago in this forum I was told I couldn't talk about Hobie until I bought one. So I bought one and guess what?  My hull cracked. Not once but twice.

 

You have your data, we have our data, and Old Town, Native and all the other Prop kayaks have their data and right now?  We haven't seen a hull crack in their hulls related to the drive and I challenge you Matt Miller to go find a cracked hull from Old Town PDL series, Native Propel series and Perception/Wildy or anyone else that uses a Prop. Kiss offs and mis-alignments happen in all kayaks during the molding process. You get weak scupper posts...we understand all this and that's not what we are looking for.... We are looking for Hull cracks from stress do to the drive.

 

We are here in this thread to talk about Hull cracks prop vs. mirage drive and guess what Matt?  You are losing that battle over 10,000 to none. :wave:

Edited by The Riddler

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Posted (edited)

Quote

 I did not say none... We make a LOT of boats and some defects do occur in rotomolding. 

Maybe you missed this part of my post?

 

9 mins ago, The Riddler said:

You're making statements that are just not true.

 

I'm pretty tired of the BS about this issue. What I have said is the fact regardless of how often you repeat your story. I get it... You have had some issues. In statistics... it happens. You can't add up the outliers and make that the data. What I know is the World wide failure vs production data. There is a VERY low incidence over all and an extremely low incidence is current times. 

 

Don't mention Hobie in the title and expect me not to respond. 

 

Edited by mmiller

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15 mins ago, mmiller said:

Apples and Oranges. Until any prop drive boats are produced in any real numbers and are used for as many years as the Hobie's being compared to... it is not comparable. I can say this... There will never be as many prop powered kayaks as there are Hobie MirageDrive powered kayaks. You can combine all of the types together and they are a VERY small fraction of what has been built by Hobie. We have the data. The advantages of the MirageDrive are huge. Props never took off as a real option.

Native Prop kayaks have been confirmed in circulation since 2008. No hull cracks can be found. They have had cracked drives at the thrawt tube connection but no hull cracks......

 

Do you think Matt Miller 10 years is long enough for one company to have a product on the market?

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Posted (edited)

13 mins ago, mmiller said:

Maybe you missed this part of my post?

 

 

I'm pretty tired of the BS about this issue. What I have said is the fact regardless of how often you repeat your story. I get it... You have had some issues. In statistics... it happens. You can't add up the outliers and make that the data. What I know is the World wide failure vs production data. There is a VERY low incidence over all and an extremely low incidence is current times. 

 

Don't mention Hobie in the title and expect me not to respond. 

 

Maybe you need to re-read. I never mentioned Hobie at all in this post to the OP. It's his thread.  I stuck to the facts of Old Town and Native and their numbers.... I addressed Hobie because what you say about Hull cracks about Hobie is just not true. Especially in that 8-10 year period. No offense Matt but it's a bunch of crap...and I have a deposit and will buy your 2019 Outback....So I have no problem with Hobie...but we deal with facts out here and we don't owe you nothing....and you owe us nothing. I just want what I pay for and that's that.

Edited by The Riddler

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2 mins ago, The Riddler said:

Do you think Matt Miller 10 years is long enough for one company to have a product on the market?

Yes... and no comparable number of them out there. The OP is comparing... Hobie was in the title. I am setting the record straight on his comparison.

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Been around since 2008. The facts are, prop drives are not completely water proof, Native drives have cracked, but no noted hull cracks from drive related stress....I challenge anyone here to find one documented cast of a crack in the hull of a prop kayak...we have 4 manufacturers out there now making Prop drives so there has to be something.  

 

 

2008.JPG

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Posted (edited)

2 mins ago, mmiller said:

Yes... and no comparable number of them out there. The OP is comparing... Hobie was in the title. I am setting the record straight on his comparison.

But we have first hand experiences, even with your pro staff, who have cracked hulls in less than 8 years. These are folks I know personally who live in on the East Coast. 

Edited by The Riddler

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