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To cull seals on Cape Cod or not? Please vote!

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NausetDog

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I’ll admit the reasons for my YES vote are purely selfish.

 

-I care more about the safety of humans than an overpopulated species of Pinniped and barely threatened Predator shark.

-I care more about the Fishery than an overpopulated species of Pinniped.

-I also don’t want to be attacked on my kayak.

 

Its our ocean too. 

(*member formerly known as 'ER31400')

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40 mins ago, Drew C. said:

 

I believe that this is generally true as well.

For all the stoopidity in this thread at least there are two these good posts.

I agree with you here. There are more reasonable ways to assure the health of the striper fishery than culling a natural predator. At this point, why even bother entertaining the idea of culling seals? Clearly the increase in sharks in the area is a natural response to the 'overpopulation' of seals. The natural cycle will run its course just like it has for millennia -  sharks will follow the seals in and reduce their numbers until the seal colony is forced to move elsewhere to avoid predation.

 

9 hours ago, 27conch said:

I don't think they have ever been threatened, and wonder why they are on the protected list?  Their levels have not been this high in 200 years !!  Also, if you are protecting any species, you must have some level you want to bring the population to?  Exactly what level is this with seals since they are already above and beyond historical levels.  Makes no sense what the management team is doing

 If you don't think they have ever been threatened then you know nothing about their population history or their inclusion in the Marine Mammal Protection Act. And no, protecting a species is not simply about 'hitting a number' and then ceasing protective measures, it's about ensuring a sustainable population that can continue to reproduce. 

 

 

We're fishermen and outdoorsmen and have one of the best reasons and platforms for being environmental stewards and promoting conservation. This thread shows a lot of people's true colors. 

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Absolutely not this is a knee jerk reaction.  Yes it is tragic what happened to this young man but it is a over reaction to cull seals.   Think about it how many people were at the ocean this year on the cape and out of all those people only a small number were injured and one killed by sharks.  I do not see anyone taking all the guns away from people to prevent injuries or death. Over reactions are not the right way to make decisions.  

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Capefish4231.  The Marine mammal act has nothing to do with endangered species. It has everything to do with this.. "The Act makes it illegal to "take" marine mammals without a permit."

I looked up north American grey seals, which I believe are the species taking over Cape Cod right now?  They are not listed as endangered, at least I found no such evidence. However the The Baltic Sea grey seal population is listed as Endangered.  Cape Cod is not within the Baltic Sea.  So my point is the species is not endangered or even threatened, yet they are protected.  WHY?   They have surpassed the historical levels by a HUGE margin, yet they are protected. WHY ?  There are 50,000 seals on Cape Cod right now and that number is increasing.  There will be a point in time where they will stretch the entire length of the Outer Cape and you really think this is a good thing for anyone?  Imagine if skunks were protected and you had 100 of them living in your backyard.  Would you be happy with this?  Lastly, I am a surf fisherman and spent a good amount of time fishing the Outer Cape.  My position on this has nothing to do with fish, but what makes sense for the overall health of the environment.

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38 mins ago, 27conch said:

Capefish4231.  The Marine mammal act has nothing to do with endangered species. It has everything to do with this.. "The Act makes it illegal to "take" marine mammals without a permit."

I looked up north American grey seals, which I believe are the species taking over Cape Cod right now?  They are not listed as endangered, at least I found no such evidence. However the The Baltic Sea grey seal population is listed as Endangered.  Cape Cod is not within the Baltic Sea.  So my point is the species is not endangered or even threatened, yet they are protected.  WHY?   They have surpassed the historical levels by a HUGE margin, yet they are protected. WHY ?  There are 50,000 seals on Cape Cod right now and that number is increasing.  There will be a point in time where they will stretch the entire length of the Outer Cape and you really think this is a good thing for anyone?  Imagine if skunks were protected and you had 100 of them living in your backyard.  Would you be happy with this?  Lastly, I am a surf fisherman and spent a good amount of time fishing the Outer Cape.  My position on this has nothing to do with fish, but what makes sense for the overall health of the environment.

Skunks are a perfect example for my case. Sure, they are not explicitly protected, but we also do not cull their population by any large number. They are left to nature and their natural predators keep their populations in check, much like I am sure we will see with seals over time. 

 

I understand that the Marine Mammal Protection Act does not specify protection to endangered species in particular but historically grey seals were nearly extinct in the 1800's and early 1900's, whether classified as 'endangered' or not. The MMPA was enacted based on congressional findings that all marine mammals were at great risk of extinction or endangerment due to human activity. 

 

It will be highly unlikely that there will come a point in time when seals are present along the entire length of the outer Cape. There is a reason they congregate on isolated sandbars or more remote beaches - probably out of fear of humans and other mammals they may view as threats. You're not going to walk onto Marconi Beach one day and find that it is just full of seals.

 

I'm a surf fisherman too and I've lived on the Cape since the day I was born and I too do not base my position on the effect of seals on fish or fishing, but on what makes sense for the overall health of the environment. The earth hasn't survived for as long as it has because man intervened and tried to control populations due to human inconvenience - it got this far because natural selection and the natural cycle of predator and prey relationships work. 

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They cull skunks on the Vineyard :)

 

By the way, thanks for the interesting discussion here.  My question to you.  If seals are at historical levels not seen in 200 years, then why not allow hunting?  They stopped all fishing for striped  bass at one point and as the population grew they reopened the fishing. Or is it your position that you want the population to grow to whatever level it can obtain naturally and then go from there?  I am also not so sure about seals not lining the entire Outer Cape or at least a really good portion at some point.  Where else are they going to go as the population grows from the present 50,000 to say 100,000 in the next 5 years?

Edited by 27conch
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47 mins ago, 27conch said:

They cull skunks on the Vineyard :)

 

By the way, thanks for the interesting discussion here.  My question to you.  If seals are at historical levels not seen in 200 years, then why not allow hunting?  They stopped all fishing for striped  bass at one point and as the population grew they reopened the fishing. Or is it your position that you want the population to grow to whatever level it can obtain naturally and then go from there?  I am also not so sure about seals not lining the entire Outer Cape or at least a really good portion at some point.  Where else are they going to go as the population grows from the present 50,000 to say 100,000 in the next 5 years?

I like the discussion when it stays intelligent like this, it's always good to hear other people's perspectives on it. I guess if I had to really drill down into why they won't allow a cull beyond the existing regulations it would probably boil down to what others have said - it would become a political discussion where more people view the seals as a 'neat' part of the local ecosystem rather than looking at it from a population control standpoint. I would like to think that we are nearing the flatting out of the seal population growth curve but I'm really just guessing now, I've about hit the upper limit of my knowledge on the subject. I think it will grow to its highest naturally sustainable level but I think it is worth bearing in mind that predators follow prey, not the other way around, so we will see the surge in seal population first, before it scales back due to the predators following them to the area (as we are seeing more and more each season).

 

I hope the seal population growth curve would look like this, with the current state indicated by the red arrow. 

Capture.JPG.d277c8095b1c4434e4ba91114fbd3029.JPG

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6 hours ago, capefish4231 said:

I agree with you here. There are more reasonable ways to assure the health of the striper fishery than culling a natural predator. At this point, why even bother entertaining the idea of culling seals? Clearly the increase in sharks in the area is a natural response to the 'overpopulation' of seals. The natural cycle will run its course just like it has for millennia -  sharks will follow the seals in and reduce their numbers until the seal colony is forced to move elsewhere to avoid predation.

 

 If you don't think they have ever been threatened then you know nothing about their population history or their inclusion in the Marine Mammal Protection Act. And no, protecting a species is not simply about 'hitting a number' and then ceasing protective measures, it's about ensuring a sustainable population that can continue to reproduce. 

 

 

We're fishermen and outdoorsmen and have one of the best reasons and platforms for being environmental stewards and promoting conservation. This thread shows a lot of people's true colors. 

sadly, it certainly does.

 

this was this am, North Light on Block. i don't mind sharing some beach with them.

 

DSCN1970.jpg

DSCN1968.jpg

ASMFC - Destroying public resources and fisheries one stock at a time since 1942.

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Seals fill a niche you don't want to hunt them to "reduce numbers" and you really don't want ot hunt them at all. Let's try to understand what role they fill in the food chain and ecosystem before assuming they are "overpopulated" and then start making plans to kill them all so John Dowd, who was a good lawyer to Trump and I hope his bills were all paid, can swim in his pond and talk about how the vast ocean surrounding his pleasure palace is a carefully tended farm where wolves of the sea are not tolerated. 

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7 mins ago, capefish4231 said:

I like the discussion when it stays intelligent like this, it's always good to hear other people's perspectives on it. I guess if I had to really drill down into why they won't allow a cull beyond the existing regulations it would probably boil down to what others have said - it would become a political discussion where more people view the seals as a 'neat' part of the local ecosystem rather than looking at it from a population control standpoint. I would like to think that we are nearing the flatting out of the seal population growth curve but I'm really just guessing now, I've about hit the upper limit of my knowledge on the subject. I think it will grow to its highest naturally sustainable level but I think it is worth bearing in mind that predators follow prey, not the other way around, so we will see the surge in seal population first, before it scales back due to the predators following them to the area (as we are seeing more and more each season).

 

I hope the seal population growth curve would look like this, with the current state indicated by the red arrow. 

Capture.JPG.d277c8095b1c4434e4ba91114fbd3029.JPG

 

Great comments. Let's try to get some population studies for further north where these seals were never extirpated and see what the pop. density it is. I agree. These seals will keep expanding south but the population may thin out rather than keep growing. Looking forward to seeing these in Long Island sound, Montauk and the south shore. 

 

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YES!! 

Something has to be done. I was on the Cape the past two weekends and witnessed the problem first hand. I was fishing at night with the fly rod from shore and watched 2 of the guys I was fishing with lose quality bass to seals at night. 

Some thing needs to be done. 

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On 9/17/2018 at 3:41 PM, JohnP said:

Can’t fix a problem until we know how it became a problem

i don’t remember seals like that 30 years ago

 

until we know more about how and why they came and increased in population it gets hard to suggest a cull of seals or sharks 

I think the excess o seals is a consequence of the lack o Sharks. You take out the apex predator the food population explodes. If we had 4 times more Great Whites there I am sure seals population would be under control. Nature finds its way if we don’t interfere too much.

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7 mins ago, marchese12 said:

I think the excess o seals is a consequence of the lack o Sharks. You take out the apex predator the food population explodes. If we had 4 times more Great Whites there I am sure seals population would be under control. Nature finds its way if we don’t interfere too much.

I think it has more to do with climate change then the lack of sharks. Because from what I know we did not have Great Whites on the Cape 30 Years ago either. 

but I could be wrong. 

 

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