The Riddler

Happy customers do not hang around in forums like this.

131 posts in this topic

43 mins ago, kross57 said:

If a hull cracks beyond that period, hobie gives you what THEY call a pro-rated warranty. Under a pro-rated warranty you pay for the usage you received. In my example, I used the kayak a little more than 3 years. 2 of those  years are covered by the original full warranty. I pay for the 3rd year. Hobie has decided that the hull should last 5 years total. Pretty short, but OK. Since I am paying for 1 year, I pay one fifth of a new hull price. So far so good.

 

This is where things go south. Hobie will not tell you - I asked a bunch of times - how they arrive at the 1 year cost. No figures for original hull cost are ever produced. The number comes out of thin air. Did I pay for the 2014 hull I received or the 2018 kayak that is $700 more? We will never know.  And that sucks.

Kross, I’ve really tried to follow along subjectively without taking sides, you know that, right? I’m trying to nail down what specifically your complaint is - it seems one of your biggest concerns is that you don’t know how they arrived at their prorated price. That’s a business decision - it’s always going to feel like it was out of thin air. They don’t have an official policy for out of warranty prorated hull replacement - so why would they have a list of prorated hull prices? Anything they decide that’s not part of an official policy is going to feel like it’s ‘out of thin air’...right? And did Hobie call it a ‘pro-rated warranty’ and explain what that means? I ask because you started that section with an all caps ‘what THEY call a pro-rated warranty’. 

 

TimS

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53 mins ago, TimS said:

It sounds like their official warranty is clear and precise and the same for everyone. Technically, they don’t have a warranty policy for failures outside of two years. That is, apparently, that :)

 

The prorated replacenent, if I’m understanding this correctly, is NOT an official policy. That’s why it doesn’t have clear terms - it doesn’t exist. That’s how it remains flexible. You also have the word of an official Hobie spokesperson that they will consider out of warranty ‘warranty’ claims individually. And from the sound of it, this has helped a number of people to the point where it’s been refered to as an unofficial warranty period. That’s where it gets confusing...but I would be inclined to take Matt’s word that they make every effort to get folks back in a Hobie when their’s fails even if it’s beyond the official warranty period. Why? Primarily because no one, even here where folks don’t need to be concerned with sharing negative firsthand experience, NOBODY has said otherwise. 

 

That makes me inclined to believe that Hobie is compromising with their customers to handle out of warranty failures - that is a lot more than I can say with a lot of companies out there. 

 

TimS

Sorry, but I look at this a completely different way. I am in no way satisfied with the treatment I received from Hobie. It was the worst experience I've ever had with a kayak, and I've owned lots.  Replacement was slow, expensive and for what? A clearly defective product.

 

Hobie had a huuuge problem with cracking hulls years ago. To the point where there were a big bunch of people who paid top dollar for a Hobie pedal drive and ended up with worthless junk. If things went on that way, they would have lost all credibility. So, they decided to warranty these hulls, regardless of the fact that the official warranty didn't cover them. Keep in mind that Hobie's official warranty is the worst in the industry.

 

This was done to the point where Hobie dealers were using this "unofficial" policy to reassure potential customers. To where the details of it are described over and over by Hobie staff on the Hobie website. The unofficial had become official.

 

Yet, because it was never put on paper, customers were not getting equal treatment. Some got the warranty, some didn't.  Cost varied. You were at the mercy of the whims of dealers and Hobie staff. 

 

This is no way for warranties to function. It should change. 

 

 

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56 mins ago, r111 said:

She's gonna get betterer and betterer before TimS locks this thread up

 

jackson-im-just-here-to-read-the-comments-72.jpg

I’m not gonna lock up a discussion that’s taking place in a respectful manner :)

 

TimS

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1 hour ago, TimS said:

Kross, I’ve really tried to follow along subjectively without taking sides, you know that, right? I’m trying to nail down what specifically your complaint is - it seems one of your biggest concerns is that you don’t know how they arrived at their prorated price. That’s a business decision - it’s always going to feel like it was out of thin air. They don’t have an official policy for out of warranty prorated hull replacement - so why would they have a list of prorated hull prices? Anything they decide that’s not part of an official policy is going to feel like it’s ‘out of thin air’...right? And did Hobie call it a ‘pro-rated warranty’ and explain what that means? I ask because you started that section with an all caps ‘what THEY call a pro-rated warranty’. 

 

TimS

Easy, peasy. When you tell someone you have a spinning reel for sale, and you send them a baitcaster instead, should they be happy? So, when you tell people, don't worry, buy a Hobie, because we offer a "pro-rated warranty" out to 5 years on defective hulls, that's exactly what you should get. A pro-rated warranty is a specific thing. Like a spinning reel or a hammer. You don't just make it up as you go along. And what you do for one customer you must do for every customer. Fair is fair.

 

Every prorated warranty has a cost associated that is determined in a certain way. It is the same for everyone, and you can d it with a calculator. When yo have a battery or tires pro-rated, they don'y go into a back room, consult Tarot cards, and give you a price. It is open and aboveboard. That's all I want.  

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What is the benefit of "unofficial"?  I never got that part. It's a hand shake deal and a wink. No other company I can think of does this...and I understand what TimS is saying.....this is more than other manufacturers do.

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5 mins ago, kross57 said:

This was done to the point where Hobie dealers were using this "unofficial" policy to reassure potential customers. To where the details of it are described over and over by Hobie staff on the Hobie website. The unofficial had become official

If the details of this policy were written by Hobie it would be official policy. We have a guy who speaks for Hobie here telling us it’s unofficial. Hobie dealers don’t speak for the company, correct? 

 

I’m not taking sides, I’m trying to understand your gripe :) It took too long? It cost too much? They didn’t explain an unwritten policy to your satisfaction?  You summarize that this is no way for a warranties to function - it isn’t a warranty. You get that, right? If I’m following along properly it was a completely voluntary choice by Hobie to offer you a prorated new hull. They could have just told you your hull was

out of warranty. What would the AG have told you if you complained that a company wouldn’t honor a warranty that expired a year earlier?

 

Sorry, I get it that you are angry, but I don’t see how you can be upset that a

company offered you a prorated price for a new hull when your out of warranty hull failed. I mean I get it that it makes you mad...but I don’t get it why you think it makes the company bad? Wasn’t your AG gripe that they sold you, at a discount, a new hull without a warranty? I haven’t seen that mentioned in a while...just complaints about how an unofficial policy was used to give you a discounted hull for an out of warranty failure. It would be a different story if this unofficial policy was official...but officially it isn’t official. Again, assuming I’m following along correctly...and it is getting bit confusing :)

 

TimS

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20 mins ago, kross57 said:

 So, when you tell people, don't worry, buy a Hobie, because we offer a "pro-rated warranty" out to 5 years on defective hulls, that's exactly what you should get. A pro-rated warranty is a specific thing. Like a spinning reel or a hammer.

Who told you that you were getting a 5 year prorated warranty? And, again, didn’t you get a prorated 5 year warranty? I’m confused.

 

As far as your selling a spinning reel and shipping a conventional...might be more accurate to say selling a spinning reel with a 5 year prorated warranty and then delivering a spinning reel with an unofficial, undocumented 5 year prorated warranty. In the interest of fair analogies :)

 

TimS

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23 mins ago, The Riddler said:

What is the benefit of "unofficial"?  I never got that part. It's a hand shake deal and a wink. No other company I can think of does this...and I understand what TimS is saying.....this is more than other manufacturers do.

I get that...the key is who’s hand did you shake? A dealer who might be stretching the truth a little to make a sale? Or a company representative who speaks officially for the company? 

 

If I told you the reel you were buying from me had a million year manufacturers warranty...and the manufacturer didn’t offer a million year warranty...who’s to blame? 

 

And there’s no benefit to unofficial warranties...I explained that in a post above to mmiller - unofficial warranties ensure some folks are going to have expectations based on assumptions are going to end up disappointed :read:

 

TimS

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30 mins ago, kross57 said:

Every prorated warranty has a cost associated that is determined in a certain way. It is the same for everyone, and you can d it with a calculator. When yo have a battery or tires pro-rated, they don'y go into a back room, consult Tarot cards, and give you a price. It is open and aboveboard. That's all I want.  

I agree entirely - if this were an official policy there should be a clear formula for arriving at that prorated price. This isn’t an official policy - that means they can invent a prorated price any way they want. It means they can refuse to offer a prorated hull to people who’s out of warranty hulls fail, it means they can roll dice or consult tea leaves or flip a

coin if they choose. If that’s all you want to be happy then you are telling Hobie to change their official warranty program to meet your demands. I don’t wanna speak for any company I don’t own, but I’m gonna guess you aren’t gonna be happy ;)

 

TimS

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42 mins ago, CR Yaker said:

I've been saying this from day 1.  Good to hear,  TimS gets it.

I’m still in the question asking phase :) It depends on whom it was that told Kross he was buying a product covered by a 5 year prorated warranty.

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1 hour ago, TimS said:

I agree entirely - if this were an official policy there should be a clear formula for arriving at that prorated price. This isn’t an official policy - that means they can invent a prorated price any way they want. It means they can refuse to offer a prorated hull to people who’s out of warranty hulls fail, it means they can roll dice or consult tea leaves or flip a

coin if they choose. If that’s all you want to be happy then you are telling Hobie to change their official warranty program to meet your demands. I don’t wanna speak for any company I don’t own, but I’m gonna guess you aren’t gonna be happy ;)

 

TimS

Wow. First, companies cannot act however they want to. They have a legal obligation to treat every customer fairly and equally...If they can't show how they arrive at a replacement cost, how can they show equal treatment?  You are very wrong. 

 

You seem to be buying the Hobie line about what is "official". If the head of Hobie warranty tells customers on the Hobie site that the company will give you a pro-rated warranty on "known issues", that's official. You want me to give you all their statements on this from the Hobie website? I thought you didn't want that here. Be glad to. A promise made by company staff on a company forum is as official as it gets.With all due respect, I'm not the one that is confused. You are.

 

Saying it is not official doesn't make it so. Why do people believe whatever they are told? You have legal rights and I am exercising mine.

  

Despite all the flak I'm getting from you and Matt and lots of others, the plain truth is, I got a one-year extension on my warranty that Matt told me I would never get. Because I moved higher up the food chain. Now, Matt's saying there will be changes to their warranty. Or did you miss this - "We will be adding some additional warranty coverage soon. This has been in the works for well over 6 months... for 2019 model year products and beyond." This is not a coincidence. And I don't buy the "6 months" part. This is the direct result of someone finally standing up to them. If I was in the wrong this would never happen. That's all the justification I need. Spin it however you want. 

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1 min ago, kross57 said:

Wow. First, companies cannot act however they want to. They have a legal obligation to treat every customer fairly and equally...If they can't show how they arrive at a replacement cost, how can they show equal treatment?  You are very wrong. 

Where did you read this? Seriously, just because you heard something doesn’t make it a law - privately owned companies can treat their customers as

differently as they want. They can just decide to give you a free kayak...or half off...they don’t need to explain why. Not sure where you got this impression but I don’t think it’s a law. I’ve owned a few businesses and nobody ever told me I had to treat every customer the same.

 

As far as buying the Hobie line...I’m still waiting for you to tell me who promised you a 5 year prorated warranty. In my opinion the answer to that question determines whether it was official or

not. 

 

And, lastly, I’m not giving you any flak, lol...I’m trying to have a discussion and you are making it difficult by refusing to have a discussion. I don’t need to be lectured about any of this - I’ve been polite and respectful and open minded - if you claim something is the law, I’m gonna ask which law. If you claim someone promised you a 5 year warranty when a company representative says they only offer a 2

year warranty I’m gonna ask who made

you that promise. I’m not attacking you or doubting you, I’m asking for more information. That doesn’t seem fair to you? 

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3 hours ago, The Riddler said:

What is the benefit of "unofficial"?  I never got that part. It's a hand shake deal and a wink. No other company I can think of does this...and I understand what TimS is saying.....this is more than other manufacturers do.

In my opinion that is something that should be left for mom and pop shops and not a multi-million dollar innovative conglomerate. I think that's where lies the bulk of the problem. Many consumers will not differentiate between official and unofficial and what would to receive the same benefits as other consumers.

Tim I believe in kross feels like he only has a partial victory, because he did not agree with the unofficial company logic, and believed what he received others should receive as well.

From the outside looking in, the one thing I haven't seen is any confirmation of the known defect aspect as it specifically relates to kross's hull.

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