Jump to content

Too many grains! Help me with my over-weighted 2 handed fly rod

Rate this topic


FlyTyr203

Recommended Posts

Typical Skagit head which belly section has about twice higher the mass/length than the tip section cause erratic behavior to the line loop. It is OK for Spey casting when the water anchor tames the cast but for overhead casting smoothly tapered head is better. As an example if 420gr belly is 23ft its mass comes 18gr/ft. Then a 90gr/10ft tip has only half the mass.

 

For you there SA has great selection of UST heads. They are not cheap $70 but buying Skagit belly and tip is not cheap either. New UST are shorter ~31ft/400gr...36ft/650gr. I have few originals which might still be available and they are bit longer but they are very nice to cast and fish.

 

I don't have or have seen but I believe SA Trird Coast tips are best. 12ft and 15ft have 13.3gf/ft average mass and when they are tapered so their rear ends should be heavy and then there comes less drastic weight drop between heavy (skagit) belly and tip.

 

Getting heavier than 650gr line heads is difficult and Skagit bellys practically only option when floating and intermediate line is needed.

 

Esa

"Game fish are too valuable to be caught only once" 1939 Lee Wulff
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@FlyTyr203,

 

Welcome to SOL! 

 

To answer your question: I think your best move is to check online auction sites and the BST (once you make enough posts) for a new head/line, which can be had for as little as $20. 

 

I also have the 13'9" 9wt Pandion, and I also have gone through the process of dialing in the line for various casts, weather conditions, and types of places I fish. I went into a detailed rundown of my setups towards the bottom of the first page:

In short:

Running Line: Airfo Miracle Braid

Head: 23' 420gr Airflo Skagit Compact (unfortunately, discontinued)

Sinking tip: Rio T-14, 15' (210 grains, head+tip is 630gr @ 38')

Floating tip: Rio 15' Floating Tip 11wt (168 grains, head+tip is 588gr @ 38'. This tip is discontinued, but the 150gr 10wt tip is still available and should work just as well.)

 

I typically use the Skagit/T-14 combo for dredging the rocks with huge Beast fleyes. This is my preferred combo for OH casting, especially when using big flies and casting in(to) the wind, and Skagit casting when I have no backcast room on the rocks. In calm conditions, 120' casts aren't uncommon with the larger flies. I would say 10mph of wind is my limit before I feel the rod is giving in and the rod can't be pushed anymore, and my casting distances drops drastically. 

The floating tip is fantastic for Spey-style casts in shallower locations using smaller/lighter flies, as it turns the entire head/tip into something like a Scandi taper. OH casting is fine as well in calmer conditions, but it shines with Spey in my experience.

This might not be something that interests you at the moment in the salt, but it's a very useful tool to have in the quiver. Just the other day, I went down to the Cape to fish a mark I fished with Mike in the spring. There's a sand dune right at our backs, about 8-10' high and 30' behind if we waded up to our stripping baskets, which made OH casting with both single and two-handed rods a PITA and limiting to around 75'. That day is was calm and I was probably nipping at 100' without having to worry about angling my backcast or hitting anything behind me. Yesterday, we had 10mph winds from around 10 o'clock. OH casting directly into it was a struggle with the floater, but more likely down to my poor technique. Spey wasn't easy either, but I developed a combination of casts that helped me execute the drift I wanted to. After finished the swing downstream at 3:00, I made a snake roll to straighten my head to 10:30. Then, I made something like a Snap-T/Perry Poke hybrid (poke even sooner than with a Speed Poke) inline with my cast, which produced tighter and more stable loops that straightened around 80'. I couldn't do that casting OH. 

 

750 grains is indeed too much for this rod, especially involving any kind of wind. 630gr is near the upper end of the recommended OH weight range, and works well for general purposes, though not in stronger winds. It also works well with the anchored casts, being at the lower end of the recommended weight spectrum. The floating tip is more delicate but allows for more technical casting, handling wind fairly well too. If I fished stronger headwinds and big out-front conditions more frequently, I would opt for a line around 500-550 grains. I learned this after fishing with Mike, having handled one of his lighter two-handers, as it was much more powerful than the Pandion but lined much lighter. I've learned that the Pandion is not an OH rod that can Spey cast but a Spey rod that can OH cast---a versatile two-hander appropriate for the salt when used for what it was designed for. If you're serious into out-front fly fishing and need an appropriate TH to handle most any conditions you dare to venture into, there are a number of threads covering such topics, such as this latest one. 

 

Additionally, here is the thread I started last fall when I was first figuring out how to line the Pandion, which stretched 5 pages of golden advice from many experienced members including Mike and Esa: 

Best of luck in your endeavor, and I think you picked the best forum you could to ask this question! 

 

Dan

 

 

 

 

 

Edit: Agreed with SSPey below---the 440gr SA Skagit Third Coast on sale at Sierra should be on the money with your 150gr tip. I searched long and hard to find a replacement Airflo when I broke mine off, but it's probably just psychological. 

Edited by DanTheBassMan

Serious pullage. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/21/2018 at 8:17 AM, FlyTyr203 said:

 

  • YES there are good lines on sale on Sierra Trading Post!!! Including the SA  Skagit Extreme that TFO recommends, in 360, 400, 440 and 480 grains. Thank you!
  • So, RedGreen and Squish (and anyone else who can help me), assuming there’s a general agreement that a 400 grain shooting head would probably be the best thing to try, what tip weight would you suggest I add to it - and what happens if I add a heavier tip (such as the 150 grain tip I already have) in, say, windy conditions?

 

Get that $30 SA head.  I’d get 440 grain but some would suggest 400 grains.  Either way.  Or get both, try them, and sell the loser.  Both will work with your current 150 grain tip.  440 + 150 = 590.  You’ll be in the zone for learning and fishing. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/21/2018 at 11:17 AM, FlyTyr203 said:

Thank you all!

 

*Greg, you’re right about my numbers being off.

 

*Squish, grazie mille! I’ll try that technique

Prego!

Qualunque stronzo può prendere un pesce da una barca

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/22/2018 at 7:35 AM, Squish said:

Yes....skagit heads require tips.  They are essentially an incomplete line without.   It will lay out much better, though never as mooth as a WF or scandi so don't expect that.  The tip connects to the head and the leader to the tip.  

 

For 420 grains you could use 85 to 100 grains, but not heavier.  I should think 85 grains would be your best bet with a 420 grain head, so this will put the total weight at 505 grains.

 

 RIO replacement tips are very good.  You can get 10 footers in 85 and 95 grains (floaters to fast sinking).  You could also get the 15 foot tips and cut them back to whatever length and weight you need.

 

If 420 works, you will need a lighter head and match it to a tip so your total weight (head and tip) equals roughly 420 (give or take)

 

Hope this helps.

 

 

 

What Squish said.  Although I think a 440g Skagit Extreme head + 100 grain (10' intermediate tip) would also work well, for around 540g overhead.  Beware that the Skagit Extreme heads for sale on Sierra Trading come in floating (orange) and intermediate (blue).   Should cost you no more than around $40 total for head plus tip if you shop carefully. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I just pulled the trigger on a new setup to try with the Beulah 8/9 Classic Switch:

- Scientific Anglers Third Coast Skagit Intermediate (400gr / 25,9g) at 21'

- RIO Fly Fishing Fly Line 10' InTouch Replacement Tip 6 INT Fishing Line at 65gr

This will give me a total shooting head & tip of 31' at 465gr.

 

Both for less than $36 shipped. I didn't want to go above 500gr total because I've tried lines from 510gr to 540gr without a tip with this rod and they feel like too much line for the rod. 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Third Coast was a brief replacement for Skagit Extreme (my line of choice).  Not sure why it didn't last long (I've never used it).  The new Freightliner is the same as the Extreme except for color and (supposedly) stronger loops.  Either way, any of the SA Skagits would be my first choice.

 

As Killie mentioned, keep your eyes out for discounted SA Skagit Extreme, and I'm sure you could find Third Coast on the cheap too..

 

 

 

Qualunque stronzo può prendere un pesce da una barca

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 mins ago, Squish said:

Third Coast was a brief replacement for Skagit Extreme (my line of choice).  Not sure why it didn't last long (I've never used it).  The new Freightliner is the same as the Extreme except for color and (supposedly) stronger loops.  Either way, any of the SA Skagits would be my first choice.

 

As Killie mentioned, keep your eyes out for discounted SA Skagit Extreme, and I'm sure you could find Third Coast on the cheap too..

 

 

 

They're currently on STP for I think $30 per head

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/23/2018 at 4:38 PM, Squish said:

Third Coast was a brief replacement for Skagit Extreme (my line of choice).  Not sure why it didn't last long (I've never used it).  The new Freightliner is the same as the Extreme except for color and (supposedly) stronger loops.  Either way, any of the SA Skagits would be my first choice.

 

As Killie mentioned, keep your eyes out for discounted SA Skagit Extreme, and I'm sure you could find Third Coast on the cheap too..

Yes it seems that the older Skagit Extremes are now difficult to find and the replacement is the Third Coast Skagits.  I can't really tell any difference in the composition or taper of the heads (except now they  go in 60g increments for the intermediates, not 40g) but the new dual density Third Coast tips that come with the "Kit" versions are interesting.  The tips are available separately as well and the 10' tips weigh in at 120g (T-12 equivalent which is kind of "just right" for overhead casting medium sized flies, IMO.)

 

Here's the sink rate data on the dual density tips (the ones that come with the Intermediate heads in kits):

    • Int./Sink 2 = 1.25/2.0 ips
    • Sink 2/Sink 4 = 2.0/4.0 ips
    • Sink 3/Sink 5 = 3.0/5.0 ips
    • Sink 7 = 7.0 ips
    Available in 8' 80 grains, 10' 120 grains, 12' 160 grains, and 15' 200 grains
  • Full selections available as kits
  • Suited for two-handed and switch rods
  • [Marked with Identifying info on on the tips]:  (XX = length, ### = grain weight, &&& = density)

 

I picked up a Kit containing a Third Coast intermediate head and four dual density tips off of the auction site for $58 total.  This suggests to me that these heads and tips might also be on closeout.  Sierra only has the heads I think, not the tips.

Edited by Killiefish
brevity
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Got the head(s) and weighed them.  The Sci Anglers Third Coast 400g Intermediate head weighs ~415g and the 440g head (which came separately) weighs ~450g.  Close enough, but you might want to weigh these heads, especially if you get them from Sierra.

 

The four tips that came with the 400g head are really nice.   10' each and 120g (more or less).  The dual density Int/S2, S2/S4 and S3/S5 will be very useful in a variety of fishing situations.  With the Beulah 9/10 surf, this set up with the 400+g head (~535g; 31' head + tip) is more adaptable than using an integrated intermediate TH line - if you could even find one in that weight range.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to register here in order to participate.

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...