Theflyguy

Two hand rods for the salt

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Esa 

 

Thanks. Do you know what the opinion is of the rest  of the Finnish Team.

 

In SH we see guys in the comp have a very flat  almost horizontal rod at the end of the back cast. Not everyone of course but quite a few. 

 

Yes a line up of fat TH casters could make quite a wave. The vision I have inside my head makes me laugh.

 

mike

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1 hour ago, Oakman said:

 

This point so often gets overlooked.

I am not sure it does Oakie. If it is then only  a few do TH anyway so how often is it. LOL

 

Agree 100% that the principles are the same . They can’t be different.

 

What differs of course  is the actual mechanics of the cast.

 

Some guys find it relatively easy to cast both .

Some and I have  found it can be very good single hand rod casters struggle to cast a TH. OH. That can normally be sorted inside of an hour if they get some decent help.

 

But we get same issues as single hand rods  in how those mechanics actually play out.

 

SMS has a different take on the drift for a TH compared to Andrew Toft a Master APPGAI instructor.

 

Sakkri is a world class TH competition  caster.

 

Until I read Mr Tofts info I thought that drift should cause rod to go flatter after stop on back cast. This allows for a longer translation  ie longer rod stroke which is handy for me being a small not desperately strong bloke.

 

 

So who do you go with. Right now I don’t know and don’t wish to offend either SMS or Mr Toft.

 

I do know my cast has gone to pot. I need some help but don’t know which way to go. Don't wish to groove further errors into my cast.

 

Sure my cast gets me out there fishing but that is not enough.

 

Confused

 

mike

 

Edited by Mike Oliver

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Seems like a drop in the tip during the drift would be a problem when combined with line feed on the back cast, in theory.  One thing for sure that I discovered last night: wading up to my navel in the dark brings back my bad arm flailing habits and makes drift difficult.

 

 

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Mike

 

Surely you have some ability to try to change your cast when you realize things have gone wrong. First things first, to solve a problem you need to know what it is. So why don't you have Anne or one of your kids hold a camera and record you casting in a field, so we have something to work with? 

 

Not as good as getting a casting instructor but it is better than figuring it out yourself. 

 

We can sort this over email if you want to keep it private. I'm no teacher but I'll do what I can to help a friend with what experience and expertise I have.  

 

There is no mutually exclusive choice on drift technique, you can learn both and see which aligns best with what you want to do. I would be extremely surprised if either were offended by your choice. 

 

It's not a contract mate.

 

Personally I am more inclined to Sakkari's philosophy on drift. Makes more sense to me from a fishing perspective. You can get the high backcast and project high if you need to on the forward cast. Getting the rod flatter before starting the delivery stroke means the tip will load less and the butt will take more of the load, relatively speaking. Same concept as low rod angle for fighting a fish. It's basically what I aim for when I do a drift leading up to a big cast and seems to work really well for me. Why it works I am less certain, but I get tight loops, huge line speed, and with a very wide stroke. It just needs a lot of overhang for me to get it to work. If I stopped higher on the forward cast I could probably use less overhang. 

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2 hours ago, JfromRI said:

Seems like a drop in the tip during the drift would be a problem when combined with line feed on the back cast, in theory.  One thing for sure that I discovered last night: wading up to my navel in the dark brings back my bad arm flailing habits and makes drift difficult.

 

 

J

 

The Line feed is completed before drift happens. Red has a video of me casting where the join in my fly line can be seen exiting the rod top.

 

 

Mike

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Posted (edited) · Report post

Red

 

Of course I do. What screwed up my cast this spring was trying to focus on Mr Tofts way of doing stuff. To the extent I forgot I had to use two  hands  and not one. Whole cast  went to pot. I am hopefully human and it really dented my confidence a lot. So it’s a rebuild.

I now have a casting instructor mostly for spey but I think he can help sort me out on OH to.

 

cheers

 

mike

 

 

Edited by Mike Oliver

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Posted (edited) · Report post

13 hours ago, Mike Oliver said:

Esa 

 

Thanks. Do you know what the opinion is of the rest  of the Finnish Team.

 

In SH we see guys in the comp have a very flat  almost horizontal rod at the end of the back cast. Not everyone of course but quite a few. 

 

mike

I am sure it is the same and A Toft is an exception! 

 

My problem when TH casting OH and Spey is TL but I think its because I can not accelerate long enough and rod begins to straighten too early. Of course I could fix it beginning slower which I can when I practice but on competiton I can't. Anyway my calm weather practice distances are still 10m...15m behind others.

 

When single hand casting and haul is finished there comes very drastic drop to line acceleration which directs line loop better to target direction and when the coal is to get as much line to back cast as possible and achieving very fast line speed is needed so on Trout Distance the 170 style has become common. On 170 rod counter flex shoots running line down so initially line loop comes bigger but it morphs narrower. On Seatrout Distance the line heads are not so long and casting seems more "normal". 

 

On TH Salmon Distance it seems like competitors have been able to lengthen the line heads even to 70ft and use longer casting strokes.

 

Esa

 

Edited by crunch

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8 hours ago, RedGreen said:

Ah, I understand now Mike. I didn't mean to offend, I wasn't aware you were trying new casting concepts and such. 

No offence taken you daft Bat.

 

All good.

 

mikey

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9 hours ago, RedGreen said:

Ah, I understand now Mike. I didn't mean to offend, I wasn't aware you were trying new casting concepts and such. 

I was . But if I had not my cast has still gone to pot. It is frustrating. But now a new project. Project repair cast. LOL.

 

Went Trouting last week and could not believe just how light a 7 wt rod felt.

 

Castable with little physical issues from early morning until I get kicked off at dusk. Dog days and fishing slow. Much tea making in trunk (boot) of car. Done now with lake Trout until the fall. Time for home repairs.

 

Prefer the solid feel of our ten wt single handlers.

 

mike

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On 7/13/2019 at 7:55 PM, RedGreen said:

And done.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you RG and Dan, Im a true believer of monitoring casting on video clips. I can see myself just few seasons ago.

I would suggest what instructors and experience casters with others told me to do when I start TH casting.

 

Agree that nothing changed from SH  to TH fly rod casting. Follow the same principles is the easy part, the problem is how to educate our  both hands during the casting stroke to follow those principals.

Both casters on the video follow  a straight rod tip path enough to cast long and catch fish anywhere, I’m sure both know the loop size and shape on the actual videos show things can be improve.  

If we understand  a straight rod tip path is the closest way to get a efficient tight, powerful and sharp loop, we need now to picture those steps on paper for a better reference as ABCD critical dots that it must be connected during the casting stroke to get the desired efficient loop size. 

 

Looking at the video link we can see clearly the different casting arcs once we connected to a fixed line, visually is a great reference to see how the top and is traveling in a straight line connecting those A B C D points with the imaginary rod tip as a pvc pipe inside a fixed rope.

RG  and Dan are showing also a nice casting stroke but they are not fully connecting the ABCD but only A to B, over my PC screen, thins are more clear, according to the final rod tip final blank shape and loop size in the videos.

Both  will cast lot of line because a TH fly rod is a lever multiplier tool plus the longer 13’ rod also helps to hide  how close that fly and leader pass over the casters shoulder side, and we all are familiar with that sensations that indicates things are off somewhere.

 

The ABCD CASTING ARC

A- Key position, is the start of the forward cast, from A to B- is no rotation keep the rod pinned back during the progressive acceleration to B focus only on loading the rod blank to the bottom handle on a straight line rod tip path. The end of B is the beginning of the rotation to C, from C  to  D  on my arms length is a 50/50 work from both hands on standard to short head lines, the casting acceleration from C to D is at the maximum before firing a tight loop to reach the target at D where again, the bottom and top hand stops the entire system at once to fire.

 

To me, as few here mentioned with TH fly rods the bottom hand can not be out of the system, focus on the baby steps learning is what helps me to educate my both hands to work together, to me, the only way to master and efficiently connect this points along with the both hands over the casting strokes was a game changer, the roll cast practice was my cure to be able to make things better. In today’s practice I reduce the long distance challenge wile practice to a 10%.

When over head casting TH fly rods adding the sleep line to load deeply the rod blank during the both forward and back cast drift it really open things up to another level, and to me that’s why this TH fly rods are so addictive once both hands can follow the casting principles from our core and feelings, and not much over what the brain can register through the ayes.

 

Hope it helps.

Best 

Viete.

 

 

 

 

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Vieterio

 

Pretty much agree. The A to B is what is most often missing in a TH cast by new guys or guys who have  never had any casting help.

The translation stage which is the A to B will of course vary by how far we want to cast and how much wind we are facing. Short range casts in nice conditions need very little translation in the cast. They can be almost all rotation .

I also like to use both hands more equally. Modern trend is for lower hand to be more dominant in increasing final acceleration. But crazy not to use the  upper hand especially if we are reaching out for distance or casting into a bad head wind,

Rod load I don’t worry about. I believe it is vastly over rated. We can load a rod very deeply and still get a very poor cast.

 

Dan uses a rocking back  and forth  to add translation to his cast. He does have  a very compact stroke. His rod acceleration on both back cast and forward cast is amazing. He fully utilises his lower hand on the back cast to. Not many guys are able to do that or even think to do it.

His blocking of the rod and straight line rod tip path combined with high line speed give him very good loops front and back.

Red casts too fast for my eyes to follow it.

 

There is room for improvement for all of is and Instructors practice and get other Instructors to critique their cast .

I found your post very helpful and I hope others will to.

 

In good conditions a TH can still be cast a very long way with not great loops and this is not helpful as it gives us the wrong picture. When the wind blows in our face the poor technical cast just goes nowhere.

Mike

 

P S Just viewed video you put up. That is a very good teaching tool never seen that before to show  what is meant by a straight line rod path.

It is not so easy I think to get a straight line rod path with a TH rod. Especially true for new guys .Single hand rod is not so difficult.

We have to think and work a bit harder with our two handers.

 

 

 

Edited by Mike Oliver

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@Mike Oliver I got out for a rare last hour of light with a friend.  Purpose was have him video the swimming action of some of my prototype flies from above. The unintended consequence was he got videos of my cast.  My heavy jig fly is perhaps the ugliest casts I have ever seen and the load on the fly rod is intense.  It was very interesting to see.  I would describe it as an ugly long distance lob cast.  The landings are ugly and require an immediate mend to get drift to set up deep swing initiated correctly.   I see the value in self video now.  Oh yeah that bullet of a fly gets quite close to me too....

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Posted (edited) · Report post

TGS

 

Those flies of yours are great fish catchers. I smile when recalling how some guys make fantastic claims as to how far they can cast large fly’s with a single hand rod.We know it is extremely difficult with big T H sticks.

 

Facts were plain to me when trying to cast your huge flies. You can’t cast them like a normal sized fly no way.  I found you could not roll cast them.

 

It was like casting a very large and heavy crab fly but much worse.

 

Worth the effort to figure a way.

 

 

mike

Edited by Mike Oliver

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