Theflyguy

Two hand rods for the salt

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2 hours ago, Mike Oliver said:

J

 

It is surprising just how deep you can wade wearing a line tray. Needs a bit of dexterity with the none  rod hand and with the feet to jump over oncoming waves. And yes the sea will dump your line often and your line tray will smack you in the chest or worse at times. All part of the fun.

 

But don’t forget at a comfortable waist deep wading depth in fair conditions you are going to be able to cast if you need it way further then with your SH rod. Or same distance for less effort. Plus you have way more control over your line in broken water.

 

Sometimes if there   is a need to wade really deep then it’s time to toss the line tray up the beach. But you will not be wading in chest waders at this point. In fact in waves waist deep means you are going to be shipping  water over the tops of your chest waders. Dry suits or wet suits are very much the way to go if you want to really get into the surf. Much safer to. You can focus better as You are not trying to stay dry which is utterly futile anyway.

 

mike

After my two runs ins with brown sharks in last two years and a wetsuiter friend of @beerdoh had a great white track him on a swim back in to shore at one of my favorite fishing areas its caused to to rethink deep wading.  Now my wading has been once I hit mid thigh its time to head for shallower water.  I dodged death enough times already in life to continue to court it by deep wading or using a wetsuit.  

 

Eveyones risk threshold is somewhere. The wackos, drug addicts, and land based wildlife like coyotes is not outside my comfort level.  Big sharks in dark water is my limit so staying knee deep or shallower.  

 

@FishHawk II  I fish with Ian's 12" synthetic slammer flies.  They are great flies.  They are easier to cast further than an unweighted beast fleye.  Ian is pheomenal caster.  Right now I am unable to throw these flies further than 80-85'.  Even on my TH rod.  To me distance casting is 100-150' with a fly rod and I am unable to even hit the bottom range of what i think of as a long cast with my current skill set, tackle, and Ian's flies.

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J

 

If you can make the Cape early June late May then we could get to fish and swop notes.

 

Big flies are a part of TH but they are a  problem to cast well.

 

 

Some guys are putting significant amounts of weight on these big flies to help get them out there. It is also of course going to depend heavily on the conditions as to how well they cast. They are never easy.

 

Mike

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The fly definitely helps. A 12" light as a cloud fly is harder to cast than one of the same physical size and bulk but is heavier or weighted.

 

Big reason why Bob's beasts cast so well. Sparse bucktail where you need size without mass, and a bulkhead to push water and hold it to give you the weight to cast the fly well. Sedotti and Ian's flies are mostly full synthetic so they add significant lead weight to help get them casting better. 

 

On wetsuiting with a TH,

 

I definitely want to do it myself, even if only for my safety should I lose my footing and I get swept off by current. But with the amount of sharks around cape cod I'm wondering if I should abandon deep wading altogether. Last time I was on cape cod someone was attacked and killed by a great white. In broad daylight. I wasn't there but it had its own thread here and it was all over local news. 

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TGS

For me 80 to 85 feet from a beach is a long distance cast.  Reason I came to this conclusion is that you rarely see casts that long.

 

100 to 130 when fishing is extremely  good casting.  150 very hard to achieve on a beach and when wading.  I know I have never done it.  The very best Fly casters in a comp are not casting very much over 150 feet and they have the wind behind them are elevated and only casting a piece of fluff. They also don’t have to worry about sets coming at them.

 

Until the sharks became a hazard then wetsuiting was fun on 

the Cape. On the flats as a get out of jail card a wet suit is very useful.

 

Horses for courses. In a surf you don’t need to be wading  deep to get soaked when wearing chest waders .

 

mike

 

 

 

 

 

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44 mins ago, Mike Oliver said:

Until the sharks became a hazard then wetsuiting was fun on 

the Cape. On the flats as a get out of jail card a wet suit is very useful.

 

Horses for courses. In a surf you don’t need to be wading  deep to get soaked when wearing chest waders .

 

Mike, does this mean your recommendations and desirables for wetsuits has changed? I do plan to get a wetsuit and do it the right way, I was just curious. Wouldn't be purchasing anything for several months as I have other things more imminent than cape cod. 

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55 mins ago, Mike Oliver said:

TGS

For me 80 to 85 feet from a beach is a long distance cast.  Reason I came to this conclusion is that you rarely see casts that long.

 

100 to 130 when fishing is extremely  good casting.  150 very hard to achieve on a beach and when wading.  I know I have never done it.  The very best Fly casters in a comp are not casting very much over 150 feet and they have the wind behind them are elevated and only casting a piece of fluff. They also don’t have to worry about sets coming at them.

 

Until the sharks became a hazard then wetsuiting was fun on 

the Cape. On the flats as a get out of jail card a wet suit is very useful.

 

Horses for courses. In a surf you don’t need to be wading  deep to get soaked when wearing chest waders .

 

mike

 

 

 

 

 

80-85' is under ideal conditions.  For me most of the time its more like 50-65' casts with this fly in average 5-14mph winds.  Any Wind over 15mph and surf I think 40'-50' would be tough.  The flies have a lot of surface area the weighting helps but cannot totally overcome the natural air resitance issues.  I try to keep my area that I fish regurlaly requiring casts no further than 70'.  

 

If you probe any area long enough with spinning gear you can usually find a sweet structure spot that big fish eventually occupy during course of a tide inside the 70' range.  I try to focus on finding these areas with spinning gear then hitting them at key times with fly gear.

 

I was keeping tabs on the location of a modest sized bunker school last year.  A friend with a boat let me know the school ended day in a certain bay with these finger jetties.  That night I was able to find the bass pushed them against a jetty on incoming tide.  Ian's bunker fly put five fish in hand for me ranging from 27-34" before the action faded.  Its worth picking up Ian's alewife fly before your spring trip.  Its a dead ringer in a lot of the Capes herring runs.

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9 mins ago, RedGreen said:

 

Mike, does this mean your recommendations and desirables for wetsuits has changed? I do plan to get a wetsuit and do it the right way, I was just curious. Wouldn't be purchasing anything for several months as I have other things more imminent than cape cod. 

Red,

 

I bought a wetsuit  two years ago for fishing with Mike and the guys on the Barnstable flats.  It's a pretty big investment.  It's a great advantage as you can wade out much earlier and stay later than the wader guys.    Also aids in buoyancy  and that was helpful for one of our group that got swept out into the flats roaring rip channel on one trip.   He quickly had to shed his jacket, stripping basket rod and reel before a kayaker local to us was able to rescue him.  All items were committed to the deep.   Hate to think of the outcome if he were wearing waders.  

 

That said I brought along the wetsuit last year but didn't use it.  With the increase in shark population with two attacked and one dying it makes one reevaluate one's options and I figure there are plenty of fish to be caught without wading too deep.  I think my money might have been better spent on an inflatable life vest or for other fishing gear.

 

HT

 

PS:   Saw you at the Edison show with your girlfriend.   Wanted to say high but you looked like a man on a mission cruising by at a pretty good speed and I was going the opposite way, late to a seminar.... see you in the spring maybe.

 

 

 

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On 1/25/2019 at 10:33 PM, The Graveyard Shift said:

Also Going to admit to being really confused by some of this discussion.

 

"Personally I cast the same side single or two handed. If wind is on my right side I cast backhanded TH and SH"

 

Also someone mentioned switching  casting hands to deal with wind.

 

I am wondering if I am just making cast work that should not but if the wind is on my right side I keep the same right hand top grip and just cast cross body TH OH over my left shoulder.  I found that while I could not get same power or efficiency I was only losing about 10-15' on my max casting range.  Is casting cross body over you left should when right handed something I should not be doing?  It just seemed like the natural way for me to cast in right side wind TH OH instead of switching to a backcast like I would SH.  

 

The fact no one is mentioning it as an option is making me think there is a reason I am missing no one is doing it. 

 

TGS,

 

Mike got me interested in TH rods a couple of years back so I bought a blank and built one.  Haven't used a SH since other than for a little trout fishing.  Within a week's time of my initial instruction from Mike on casting this rod I taught myself to switch it up due to changing wind conditions.   ie: My natural RH (right hand upper grip) to a LH cast (left hand upper grip).   On some days I found that I could actually throw a better line with tighter loops on my unnatural left side.   Not sure why but my mechanics seemed to be crisper.   Maybe a RH fatigue thing but for whatever reason it worked and now I go back and forth without giving it a thought.    Can't do this with a SH rod.   Can't throw a baseball lefty either :)     Practice a little it will probably come along better than you think.

 

HT

Edited by HillTop

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5 mins ago, HillTop said:

 

TGS,

 

Mike got me interested in TH rods a couple of years back so I bought a blank and built one.  Haven't used a SH since other than for a little trout fishing.  Within a week's time of my initial instruction from Mike on casting this rod I taught myself to switch it up due to changing wind conditions.   ie: My natural RH (right hand upper grip) to a LH cast (left hand upper grip).   On some days I found that I could actually throw a better line with tighter loops on my unnatural left side.   Not sure why but my mechanics seemed to be crisper.   Maybe a RH fatigue thing but for whatever reason it worked and now I go back and forth without giving it a thought.    Can't do this with a SH rod.   Can't throw a baseball lefty either :)     Practice a little it will probably come along better than you think.

 

HT

Good to know will give it a shot.  This will be first full season TH OH.  Should make some major ground in developing better proficiency.  I manage to do well last year but there is a lot of room for growth!

 

Also I am going to keep working on throwing Skagit casts with huge flies.  There are some areas skagit or spey is only way to fly fish.  Got to figure out how to get these casts to work with big flies.  

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3 hours ago, JfromRI said:

I do all of those things, hopping, swimming, etc, except for wet suits.  I sometimes fish in early fall without the waders and still find that the basket limits my depth.  In some cases, its best use has been to detach and use as a tub to float my gear while i swim to a sand bar.  

 

I've been fishing the surf for a long time so I know it well and I know how to wade into it, but until last year, surf rods and SH fly rods were my only gear.  Since getting the 11' TH last year, I've noticed only one other TH rod being used here (though I tend to avoid the busy spots), so I'm looking forward to meeting up with others on this thread to see how they do it.  All in fun, of course.  It is recreational fishing, after all.  

 

I'm getting close to finishing this 13' Pac Bay build and can't wait to try it out.

 

J.

 

J,

 

02807Fish is from your area I think.  He's building one of Mike's blanks so possibly someone to hook up with to TH fish.    I've been to a few of the Rhody Fly Rodder & RISA Fly Fishing Groups fly outings in your area of the last couple of years and I too was lone TH guy in the group.    Things seem to be changing and I think TH'r will become more prevalent going forward.   Just seems to make sense in the surf.

 

Also take Mike's offer up to visit at the Cape this spring.   On any given week there are as many as 6 or 7 of us that use TH'rs and this year 5 of us will be using Mike's designed 12'9" rods.  It's interesting to watch as we all have our own style/way of casting and who knows maybe something to be garnered from even someone like myself, the neophyte of our group.  :) 

 

HT

 

 

 

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Thanks HT for the encouragement about the Cape and for reminding me about 02807Fish.  I plan to PM him when I finish building this rod.  As for inflatable vests, I wear an auto-inflating one when fishing on rocks, mainly because what kills people is when they get knocked unconscious on the way down.  For years, the guys I see tell me how smart I am for doing this, but they never do it themselves.  We lose people every year here, mostly off the rocks.  I also wear a gasketted surf top and a tight surf belt to minimize swamping if I go under.   Since I wear stocking foots, I had to invest in good waders with good gravel guards so the boots don't turn into anchors (boot-foot waders don't work well where I fish).  Of course, nothing beats fishing without all this gear when the water's warm enough.  Regarding sharks, I know guys who've been fishing the Cape their whole lives who won't put a big toe in the water anymore.  Here in Rhode Island, I see harbor seals on every spring and fall outing, but the great whites don't seem to follow them here as much as on the Cape, although there is an occasional sighting near Point Judith.  Maybe it's just a matter of time. 

 

J.

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3 hours ago, RedGreen said:

 

Mike, does this mean your recommendations and desirables for wetsuits has changed? I do plan to get a wetsuit and do it the right way, I was just curious. Wouldn't be purchasing anything for several months as I have other things more imminent than cape cod. 

No Red

 

Not every beach or locale has sharks. Cape Cod is a problem right now. But I will have two wet suits with me in June.

 

Ok way I use them will differ . No swimming or attempting to swim first trough to first sand bar. Not on your nelly. No deep wading at night or daytime on Outside Beaches. Welfeet has had sharks to on the inside. No wading out hundreds of yards at night there anymore.

Will still deep wade on North Side Flats on spring tides but not in depth of night. South Side of Cape I am happier to wade deeper at night.

 

As you know I share my time between chest waders and wet suits.

 

If there is a risk I can get washed off an inlet or a sand bar or pulled into the bottom of a burm on an outer beach by a large wave then I will elect to wear my wet suit.

 

I always wear my wet suit on the North side  Flats In spring tides as if I screw up with the leaving time I have a better chance of making shore  still breathing and not suffering from hyperthermia if in the water for a long time.

You take your chance then with any possible sharks but you have a greater chance of survival. I have helped in one or two rescues on those flats and been in a bit of bother myself once so no chance I am going to mess about in chesties.

There are plenty of videos that show guys swimming in swimming pols quite happily in chest waders . Key words here are swimming pool still water no current and warm water. No waves. In two words BS. If you think there is a risk you may have to swim then waders are useless and a total liability.

One day Montauk is maybe going to hit form again or I just need to return regardless. For me to fish M without a wet suit is akin to fishing without a rod and line.

 

I also like the extra flex and mobility when having to scramble over reefs and rocks.

 

For some reason I have never understood why very few Fly Guys use wet suits. One or two of the Guys in the spring group like wet suits like Oakie and Riggedeel and  three or four other guys  I fish with.  Best hoot ever is to fish flats or surf with Rigged Eel wet suiting. You don’t get to stop laughing.

One caveat with a wet suit is that to get the best out of them they have to be a great fit and very high quality. Cost wise a high end surfers flexible winter suit with a built in hood is way less than chest waders and a fly boy wading jacket.

Plus unlike waders it does not leak in the same way a brand new pair of waders usually does.

 

Mike

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36 mins ago, Mike Oliver said:

No Red

 

Not every beach or locale has sharks. Cape Cod is a problem right now. But I will have two wet suits with me in June.

 

Ok way I use them will differ . No swimming or attempting to swim first trough to first sand bar. Not on your nelly. No deep wading at night or daytime on Outside Beaches. Welfeet has had sharks to on the inside. No wading out hundreds of yards at night there anymore.

Will still deep wade on North Side Flats on spring tides but not in depth of night. South Side of Cape I am happier to wade deeper at night.

 

As you know I share my time between chest waders and wet suits.

 

If there is a risk I can get washed off an inlet or a sand bar or pulled into the bottom of a burm on an outer beach by a large wave then I will elect to wear my wet suit.

 

I always wear my wet suit on the North side  Flats In spring tides as if I screw up with the leaving time I have a better chance of making shore  still breathing and not suffering from hyperthermia if in the water for a long time.

You take your chance then with any possible sharks but you have a greater chance of survival. I have helped in one or two rescues on those flats and been in a bit of bother myself once so no chance I am going to mess about in chesties.

There are plenty of videos that show guys swimming in swimming pols quite happily in chest waders . Key words here are swimming pool still water no current and warm water. No waves. In two words BS. If you think there is a risk you may have to swim then waders are useless and a total liability.

One day Montauk is maybe going to hit form again or I just need to return regardless. For me to fish M without a wet suit is akin to fishing without a rod and line.

 

I also like the extra flex and mobility when having to scramble over reefs and rocks.

 

For some reason I have never understood why very few Fly Guys use wet suits. One or two of the Guys in the spring group like wet suits like Oakie and Riggedeel and  three or four other guys  I fish with.  Best hoot ever is to fish flats or surf with Rigged Eel wet suiting. You don’t get to stop laughing.

One caveat with a wet suit is that to get the best out of them they have to be a great fit and very high quality. Cost wise a high end surfers flexible winter suit with a built in hood is way less than chest waders and a fly boy wading jacket.

Plus unlike waders it does not leak in the same way a brand new pair of waders usually does.

 

Mike

As an aside, this is the Great White activity (sightings) from the end of May 2018 to end of June 2018.  Not down to the flats but........ being 3/4 of a mile out might restrict my timing to water no deeper than knee to mid thigh.... :)

 

Image_2723.png.9353f94cd28a2383b1910df87a49f201.pngl

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7 hours ago, Mike Oliver said:

TGS

For me 80 to 85 feet from a beach is a long distance cast.  Reason I came to this conclusion is that you rarely see casts that long.

 

100 to 130 when fishing is extremely  good casting.  150 very hard to achieve on a beach and when wading.  I know I have never done it.  The very best Fly casters in a comp are not casting very much over 150 feet and they have the wind behind them are elevated and only casting a piece of fluff. They also don’t have to worry about sets coming at them.

 

Until the sharks became a hazard then wetsuiting was fun on 

the Cape. On the flats as a get out of jail card a wet suit is very useful.

 

Horses for courses. In a surf you don’t need to be wading  deep to get soaked when wearing chest waders .

 

mike

 

 

 

 

 

I fully agree with you there.

6 hours ago, HillTop said:

 

TGS,

 

Mike got me interested in TH rods a couple of years back so I bought a blank and built one.  Haven't used a SH since other than for a little trout fishing.  Within a week's time of my initial instruction from Mike on casting this rod I taught myself to switch it up due to changing wind conditions.   ie: My natural RH (right hand upper grip) to a LH cast (left hand upper grip).   On some days I found that I could actually throw a better line with tighter loops on my unnatural left side.   Not sure why but my mechanics seemed to be crisper.   Maybe a RH fatigue thing but for whatever reason it worked and now I go back and forth without giving it a thought.    Can't do this with a SH rod.   Can't throw a baseball lefty either :)     Practice a little it will probably come along better than you think.

 

HT

Glad to know I'm not the only one HT :howdy:

 

2 hours ago, Mike Oliver said:

No Red

 

Not every beach or locale has sharks. Cape Cod is a problem right now. But I will have two wet suits with me in June.

 

Ok way I use them will differ . No swimming or attempting to swim first trough to first sand bar. Not on your nelly. No deep wading at night or daytime on Outside Beaches. Welfeet has had sharks to on the inside. No wading out hundreds of yards at night there anymore.

Will still deep wade on North Side Flats on spring tides but not in depth of night. South Side of Cape I am happier to wade deeper at night.

 

As you know I share my time between chest waders and wet suits.

 

If there is a risk I can get washed off an inlet or a sand bar or pulled into the bottom of a burm on an outer beach by a large wave then I will elect to wear my wet suit.

 

I always wear my wet suit on the North side  Flats In spring tides as if I screw up with the leaving time I have a better chance of making shore  still breathing and not suffering from hyperthermia if in the water for a long time.

You take your chance then with any possible sharks but you have a greater chance of survival. I have helped in one or two rescues on those flats and been in a bit of bother myself once so no chance I am going to mess about in chesties.

There are plenty of videos that show guys swimming in swimming pols quite happily in chest waders . Key words here are swimming pool still water no current and warm water. No waves. In two words BS. If you think there is a risk you may have to swim then waders are useless and a total liability.

One day Montauk is maybe going to hit form again or I just need to return regardless. For me to fish M without a wet suit is akin to fishing without a rod and line.

 

I also like the extra flex and mobility when having to scramble over reefs and rocks.

 

For some reason I have never understood why very few Fly Guys use wet suits. One or two of the Guys in the spring group like wet suits like Oakie and Riggedeel and  three or four other guys  I fish with.  Best hoot ever is to fish flats or surf with Rigged Eel wet suiting. You don’t get to stop laughing.

One caveat with a wet suit is that to get the best out of them they have to be a great fit and very high quality. Cost wise a high end surfers flexible winter suit with a built in hood is way less than chest waders and a fly boy wading jacket.

Plus unlike waders it does not leak in the same way a brand new pair of waders usually does.

 

Mike

I wear 3mm wetsuit pants and light hiking boots, but no swimming :)

 

Cheers

 

^..^

Edited by snapper1

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