Theflyguy

Two hand rods for the salt

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On 9/11/2018 at 7:47 AM, Oakman said:

My .02 cents.  Understand your concerns with lazar line, I have it on a 3wt set up and I was very impressed with how little memory it has.  Now on to your desire to take your running line off the reel and fish, you are gonna need to stretch any running line.  If you stuff braid, the mono is gonna need a stretch off the reel, you could stuff the lazar and not need the soak, it stretches well off the reel.  I usually stretch arm lengths of the head, get that working and then over the next several casts, stretch and load running line into the basket until I have what I want out.

 

As for production running lines, I have settled on the Airflo ridge in the largest diameter.  Very little memory, still needs a little stretch off the reel, good feel.  But, it's only 100' so not what you are looking for.  Keep us posted. 

See post #11 in this thread for details on Max Grath and how he stuffed mono. You have to glue it at intervals inside the braid! 

 

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1 hour ago, 02807Fish said:

 

RedGreen thanks for jumping in.  I will read up on the Common Cents System.  Should I just Google it, or will I find it in SOL?  I agree that the best test is real world use.  So I'll give it a try, starting at about 100 grains lighter that its Spey window.

 

Mark

Google it, you'll find it pretty quick. It's a method for quantifiably measuring rod power and action, relative to other rods. I use it myself, and I know what rods of mine work well, so based off that and your info, I can make reasonably accurate statements about how your rod will work too. It is a godsend.

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I tried the OPST and the serum with my Opal 7/8.  The serum is perfect for that rod. I get 90 feet OH with the serum but the OPST was closer to the 50-70 range The OPST works but I would not recommend it for that rod. 

 

I have been having great luck with mixing spey and OH when I fish the surf.    There are lots of times spey casts aren’t going to happen. You really need to watch the sets and time it. Also if it it is too foamy, the line sticks in a weird way (not surprisingly). 

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51 mins ago, RedGreen said:

Google it, you'll find it pretty quick. It's a method for quantifiably measuring rod power and action, relative to other rods. I use it myself, and I know what rods of mine work well, so based off that and your info, I can make reasonably accurate statements about how your rod will work too. It is a godsend.

 

I will.  Thanks.

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52 mins ago, jjp5 said:

I tried the OPST and the serum with my Opal 7/8.  The serum is perfect for that rod. I get 90 feet OH with the serum but the OPST was closer to the 50-70 range The OPST works but I would not recommend it for that rod. 

 

I have been having great luck with mixing spey and OH when I fish the surf.    There are lots of times spey casts aren’t going to happen. You really need to watch the sets and time it. Also if it it is too foamy, the line sticks in a weird way (not surprisingly). 

 

It does seem to like a longer line.  The Ambush 9 plus a 10 foot tip puts the total system at 34 feet.

 

I agree.  A snap T off either shoulder is a great way to reposition the fly and roll it out for a pickup if the surf takes it before you can strip all the way in.

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7 hours ago, RedGreen said:

Apologies Mike for trying to answer a question addressed to you. I didn't think you'd be back on SOL for a while. 

 

7 hours ago, RedGreen said:

Apologies Mike for trying to answer a question addressed to you. I didn't think you'd be back on SOL for a while. 

No probs Red. Appreciate you trying to help. I just found some time and my scratch pad.

 

mike

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12 hours ago, RedGreen said:

Also trust me you don't want as heavy a line for overhead as spey, especially if you're actually fishing that setup. If you can load the rod speycasting with that line you will REALLY load it overhead casting. Esa will disagree but this is what I have seen and experienced. You don't want that spey load for fishing out front overhead casting. In high wind it will fold up on you and not do what you need. 

 

Trust me on this. Or try it yourself and draw your own conclusions. Ultimately it's your choice. 

Rod bend (load) is mostly a conseguence of the casting distance!

 

Fly line weight has more interesting function: Too heavy line increase rod bend because it needs more force to accelerate. But too light line increase rod bend as well because its energy related wind resistance is high so it needs more speed and then rod bend increase. Not because of line weight but because of rod swing weight and blank wind resistance where rod length has big effect.

 

Spey casting increase rod bend because of water anchor and there typical Skagit line which tip is heavy and leader is short together with sustained anchor casting waste line energy more than touch&go casting where usual leader is long.

 

When overhead casting it is the first back cast which can make rod bend more when it needs to lift from water and straighten to back but clever angler fish fly closer and does the first back cast using shorter length of line and then release line head out of rod tip. But casting same weight line same distance the OH cast bends rod the least.

 

I really think it is silly to use long rod and cast light line where most energy goes to accelerating the rod which is not cast :)

 

Esa

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On 9/12/2018 at 6:36 PM, RedGreen said:

Google it, you'll find it pretty quick. It's a method for quantifiably measuring rod power and action, relative to other rods. I use it myself, and I know what rods of mine work well, so based off that and your info, I can make reasonably accurate statements about how your rod will work too. It is a godsend.

 

RedGreen,

 

I found the Common Cents System original PDFs online.  But when I visited the site the next day I received a message that the domain name had expired.  After much searching I did find a Power Point presentation a rod builder had prepared which boils the system down to a glossary of terms, formulas, a conversion table and how-to photos (it actually compares the CCS to another methodology the Target Flex Weight Rating Test).  I am going to ask a local rod builder friend to help me balance the rod, which seems to be the most critical variable other than the shiny new pennies.

 

In the meantime I took the Loop Cross S1 1369 out to the lawn in calm conditions.  Again, this rod likes 600-650 Spey grains, depending upon the type of head.  I started with a 23' 500 grain Skagit with a very light 10' 55 grain tip.  Laying out 90 feet overhead with a tug on the reel was child's play.  Of course, the tip was mismatched and the head was crashing into the tip with the slightest application of power.  So I replaced the 55 grain tip with 10' 95 grain tip.  It was a much better match of head and tip, with more consistent loops and it also laid out 90' without hitting the bottom hand.  But it was still asking for more.  My guess is this rod could overhead 650 grains and a decent sized fly comfortably.  We'll see when I take it to the beach.

 

I'll let you know of the Action Angle and Intrinsic Power test results.  One note the PPP author equates Intrinsic Power with Effective Rod Number "expressed in units of grains".

 

Mark

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On 9/6/2018 at 8:15 PM, RedGreen said:

HT,

 

I have looked at the LAZAR line and to me the big issue is the mono core. I've used a mono core fly line once before and it was dreadful at best. The core stretched but the coating didn't so the two separated very fast. Only fly line that's ever lasted me only a few weeks before completely falling apart. The memory is a big issue for me as well. I'd really rather not stretch out 100+ feet of running line and just not deal with memory at all. My experience with mono as a running line is that you can get it straight(er) when stretching, but that's basically it. You'll never get it totally straight and compliant. Plus it stretches, so with long lengths of running line it will rubber band a little and that may make it hard to get hook sets of even feel takes at all. The best running line I've used for the TH so far is an airflo ridge running line. Thin, but thick enough to hold onto, shoots well, and is good and responsive (low stretch) with absolutely no memory at all. I have another airflo one that has a GSP core that is wonderfully sensitive but it is thicker and it doesn't quite shoot as good as the ridge running line. It squeals a little though my REC single foots until it gets wet then is silent. The ridge running line is silent wet or dry.

 

This lazar line may be much more different than I'm imagining though. I will look into it over the winter as I explore new ideas and concepts for out front fishing with the TH. For me it has to be easy to manage with very long lengths (100+ feet of running line), be stiff enough to not tangle constantly but also limp enough to handle well, and stay in the basket well. It also has to shoot very well and have as little stretch as possible. As it stands I'm very happy with the ridge running line for casts of up to 130' or so. It's beyond that where I start having issues with managing the running line due to tangles or other things. I'll look into it and experiment over winter. Hopefully it turns out to be what I'm looking for.

 

The deeper basket is definitely on the to-do list. I have one I made for my significant other when she came with me to the cape this spring and I may try that one for myself, see how it goes. It may be just what I'm looking for as it's much deeper.

I spooled up the 50lb Lazar line and gave it a nice stretch before using . I will say that I had no tangle or knot issues, and it doesn’t burn your fingers while stripping. The issue is that it’s so thin and I’m throwing almost 800gr and I couldn’t consistently get a good grip on it even with a nitrile coated glove. Casts were fine when the line didn’t slip.  I also experienced too much stretch when working bigger poppers, not getting right action on those flies. I think I will switch back to a thicker coated running line.

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Mark, mounting the rod handle or blank in top of a door it should be easy to find enough free room to measure even a very long rod. Please use 18 inches (450mm) mounting length when measuring TH rods and TH rod blanks and you get comparable values to what I, Red and few others have measured. Just rod butt is tied so the handle bends up naturally like it does when we cast. For SH rods I have used 7 inches. Some rods which have big butt knobs need to have something under the front handle to get them horizontal and I have used just strips of cardboard. For mounting rope works but using two straps is easy but it needs to be tightened quite hard because it stretch.

 

Esa

IMG-0700.JPG

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Esa,

 

We are talking fishing out front not competition casting. We are in the water up to our waist or so with wind waves and spray in our face, day or night. We don't have time to wait for a rod to load and unload like you guys do.

 

I respect very much what you do and everything that you're capable of, but these are totally different arenas of fly fishing. We don't use a piece of fluff out front, we use real saltwater flies. My go-to is a 3/0 deceiver or a 6"+ hollow fleye. Others prefer 8" minimum up to a foot long. It's not about casting for us, if it were we wouldn't be out there as some nights you won't get any more than just the head out of the rod. Last time I went I struggled to put out 60' casts with the line shrieking through the air from the line speed I was generating. I absolutely guarantee that a heavier line or a more easily loaded rod would not have helped one bit. If anything what I found myself wanting was more rod length to more easily cast my 42' shooting head. 13' just would not cut it.

 

Get out here and fish with us at night and you'll understand too. If I'm not mistaken I know you've been out to cape cod before out front but not at night. It is brutally unforgiving but the possibilities are greater then than at any other time.

 

I would have been hopelessly out gunned last time out if I had my 10wt or a spey rod.

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On 9/16/2018 at 11:45 AM, crunch said:

Mark, mounting the rod handle or blank in top of a door it should be easy to find enough free room to measure even a very long rod. Please use 18 inches (450mm) mounting length when measuring TH rods and TH rod blanks and you get comparable values to what I, Red and few others have measured. Just rod butt is tied so the handle bends up naturally like it does when we cast. For SH rods I have used 7 inches. Some rods which have big butt knobs need to have something under the front handle to get them horizontal and I have used just strips of cardboard. For mounting rope works but using two straps is easy but it needs to be tightened quite hard because it stretch.

 

Esa

IMG-0700.JPG

Esa,

 

Thanks.  I found Common Cents System Simplified.  I am going to used a filing cabinet that is 64" high and woodworking vise clamps.  I will shim under the upper handle until the first foot of the blank beyond the upper grip is level.  Then I'll add bags of pennies in increments of 10 until the tip of the rod is 10" from the floor (64" - 54"* = 10") *1/3rd rod length.

 

Mark

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29 mins ago, RedGreen said:

Esa,

 

We don't use a piece of fluff out front, we use real saltwater flies. My go-to is a 3/0 deceiver or a 6"+ hollow fleye. Others prefer 8" minimum up to a foot long.----

 

----Last time I went I struggled to put out 60' casts with the line shrieking through the air from the line speed I was generating. I absolutely guarantee that a heavier line or a more easily loaded rod would not have helped one bit. If anything what I found myself wanting was more rod length to more easily cast my 42' shooting head. 13' just would not cut it.

 

Get out here and fish with us at night and you'll understand too. If I'm not mistaken I know you've been out to cape cod before out front but not at night. It is brutally unforgiving but the possibilities are greater then than at any other time.

 

I would have been hopelessly out gunned last time out if I had my 10wt or a spey rod.

You really need to cast heavier line!!! It performs better in wind and with big fly! Rod has very little effect unless it is way too soft. Too stiff rod is not easy to cast because casting stroke needs to be narrow not to increase line loop size and stiff rod usually is heavy as well.

 

I have fished sea run trout in stronger winds here in Finland than I have seen during my five visits to Cape Cod. Best rod/blank I have used is Berkeley Chili 11ft spinning rod rated for 15/55g lures. It is IP472g AA70 and is very nice with 700...750gr lines which are heavy enough for smallish trout flyes. Before that I did use Sage TCR 12'9'' 9wt IP377g AA68 which I did cast 700gr line.

 

Today I again did testing with my most powerful Carp rod Karpfenrute 13ft 3.5lbs, IP746g AA55 casting 950gr line and I was not able to bend it enough and line speed did suffer when I had to use narrow casting stroke to achieve narrow line loop. Then when I did increase line speed I had to use wider casting stroke and then line loop got wide. Previous test I did cast 1730gr line and then rod did bend enough but naturally that is way too heavy line for fishing although I was able to shoot more line I have ever shot with any other fly setup.

 

Esa

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Esa

 

Interesting. 

 

One  of my favourite Rods has an IP of 547. My preferred line 530 grains .

 

You like 750 grains on your rod IP 472.

 

I just don’t get it. 

 

In the surf we dont have e time to make several false casts just to set up the cast. It is lift roll and deliver. 750 would turn my rod to mush. Or I would grow a beard waiting for the line to move.

 

We are in the water waist deep. Line has to stay flat.

 

Mike

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11 mins ago, Mike Oliver said:

Esa

 

Interesting. 

 

One  of my favourite Rods has an IP of 547. My preferred line 530 grains .

 

You like 750 grains on your rod IP 472.

 

I just don’t get it. 

 

In the surf we dont have e time to make several false casts just to set up the cast. It is lift roll and deliver. 750 would turn my rod to mush. Or I would grow a beard waiting for the line to move.

 

We are in the water waist deep. Line has to stay flat.

 

Mike

I am no expert in 2 handed rods but I think its different lines for Different folks. It all depends on how you like to cast and what you are used to.

Mike do you like the close to 1:1 ratio of line to IP on all your custom two handed rods? Or is it just this one rod? 

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