Theflyguy

Two hand rods for the salt

482 posts in this topic

SMS

 

Thanks. I did have a short call with Lee who helped me find a pub to stay in and he indicated he wanted to kick off at 08:00. That might be a bit of a challenge to get the Casters up and ready for that time.

I am driving up in the morning so will need to leave home about 04:30.

 

Good luck.

 

Mike

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On 6/20/2018 at 7:54 PM, RedGreen said:

Mike Oliver has worked for many many years to develop his own line of TH rod blanks which he uses exclusively. To be talking about his kit in detail would be to a degree "selling" his product on a part of the forum where selling products is not allowed.

 

Mike please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that's the facts.

 

I don't think so ......... how about Ksong he's on SOL almost every day hawking his rods.

 

J:wag:n

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12 hours ago, Mike Oliver said:

Maybe he paid to be a sponsor and therefore is allowed to do that. 

Not my style.

 

Mike

 

Mike

 

Your a class act.

 

J:wag:n

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Ran some CCS on a bunch of carp rods I have here and I must be doing something wrong. For instance a 12' 2.75 lb TC rod measures in at 895/73, 13' 3.5 lb TC Torrix at 1313/70 and a 13' 3.5 lb Zziplex LDC  at 1139/74. All these were measured in grams and I also measured a Loomis 11'3" CC at 303/65, TCR 12' 3" at 313/67 and a TCR 12' 9" at 395/74 which all seem about right if a little on the high and fast side for the TCR 12' 9". The carp rods IP does not compare with some of the figures I have seen quoted on here and all that I tested comfortably exceed the 16 weight max on the Rosetta Stone chart so have no idea where to start with line weights other than take them over the park for a testing session and throw the CCS guide away. The IP figures do seem to compare with the rods lead casting ability. None of the rods are cheapo Far East imports.

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Posted (edited)

CCS is very good method to test rods! Both your 13ft Carp rods seem way too stiff for fly line casting! 12ft rod is stiff as 2.75lbs but perhaps 900gr is enough. 900gr line on 12ft rod is not easy to cast but performance will be incredible!

 

Esa

Edited by crunch

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My TCR 12'9'' blank was IP377g AA68 so with handle and snakes IP would be closer to yours but AA not. I do not check the spine when I measure blanks which has some effect to stiffness. I remember reading that Sage did change TCR blanks during their production period.

 

Esa

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Esa thank you for the reply. I appear to be unable to relate IP figures to line weights comes with experience I guess. Two more 13 footers came in at 873/65 and 1019/69 and 12 footers at 818/62, 456/68, 1020/58, 1053/67 and 1067/75. Where does the IP/AA give you and indication that a rod is not suitable for TH use and what should I be looking at.. The only way I can see of making a 900 grain line is using a Skagit head and splicing that to a suitable sinking portion... or use clothes line!.

Also trying to reverse engineer some surplus SH fly rods into light spinning rods, I know about the rule of 1/16s but the CCS contains an equation (1.5 x number of cents) -20 = weight in grains this is for the upper limit of casting weight and makes no sense at all. 

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39 mins ago, crunch said:

My TCR 12'9'' blank was IP377g AA68 so with handle and snakes IP would be closer to yours but AA not. I do not check the spine when I measure blanks which has some effect to stiffness. I remember reading that Sage did change TCR blanks during their production period.

 

Esa

I re-ringed my TCR with SL rings except for three bottom rings and spined it with the rings on the soft side of the spine so AA would be different under test (?). It is a bit of a beast and eats 600 grains with lots of room for heavier lines.

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Essexalan

 

As a total information sponge I have to say that all this data is total eye candy to me.

 

OK, bit by bit.

The rosetta stone for CCS caps out at a 16wt as you saw, which is I believe 173 cents, or 432.5 grams. (1 cent = 2.5 grams). I've tried plotting the graph of cents vs. ERN to extrapolate an accurate line of best fit but have had issues with doing so. However, I've found that it's unreliable as each person tends to favor what I call a Payload Power ratio of a particular value. This ratio I define is the ratio of the payload of the line mass (in grains) to the intrinsic power of the rod (in grams). My DHi2 TH fly rod has IP 557 grams, AA71 degrees. I prefer 650 grain heads on it. That's a ratio of ~1.17:1. Each person tends to prefer their own ratio, but that's mine. If you have a rod and line combo you like, you can measure the mass of the line head in grains, then take the IP of the rod, and find that ratio. Of course it varies from rod to rod but I have found I prefer somewhere between 1.15-1.3:1. All overhead casting.

 

Based on that, for that Torrix I'd need a 1500 grain line to load it how I like. That's herculean as far as fly casting goes. Like casting 7 210 grain heads at once.

 

I don't use CCS as a standalone guide of what rod is ideal with which line and so on, but I use it as a way of strictly comparing two rods. There's other small factors as well but generally knowing the action and relative stiffness of the rod is a very solid place to start with how to line it and set it up. Of course you'd have to build it out to know for sure.

 

If your method was consistent then I believe your measurements are fairly accurate as there's only about a 5% difference between IP in the 12'9" TCR you measured vs. Esa's.

 

I was thinking about trying one of those Torrix's as a TH fly rod, especially the 13'ers (Esa please don't engage me with the shorter rod argument), but knowing just how powerful that 3.5lb is I think 3lb would be plenty! Even for a 1000 grain head. I'd only need about 850 grams of IP to make that cast how I like.

 

One possible idea for extremely heavy heads is to get the heaviest skagit heads you can find and splice them directly together. 520 grain + 320 grain @ 22 and 19ft respectively gives an 840 grain 41 foot head. Plenty short for fishing and maneuverability and very castable. At least I think it could be. I haven't tested it yet as I don't have a rod which will throw 840. I'm picking one up in two weeks so hopefully will be able to test it soon over the winter.

 

Thank you so much for putting in the time to measure these blanks/rods, and publishing them online. As far as I know you're the first person ever to measure a Harrison rod blank with CCS and publish the results!

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All interesting stuff RG the list is not complete but at least two of the 12 footers and one of the 13 footers are also Harrison. The 13' 3.25 lb 873/65 I think may be a Torrix but unable to confirm that at present but I do know some guys who might, I did not build this blank up and the builder, now retired, tended to spray his blanks different colours. The other 13 footer is an IMX blank 1019/69 great casting rod but would need a lot of grains. I picked most of these rods up second user very cheaply. No intention of turning Zippys into fly rods, sacrilege! I like your idea of a ratio will have to think on that but the thought of casting two Skagits in to wind does not appeal, perhaps start with one of those 720 grain FIST float/intermediate/slow sink heads and work from there? The big point I have found is that you can effectively cast DH rods with quite a weight spread but only one will really make it talk to you and I hate overloading the rod. I will lash some lines together and head for the park and see what I come up with.

The IP measurements are as accurate as I could get them but the AA could be a degree or so out either way but no more. I double measured all of them and used the same procedure throughout, need to make a proper jig.

Don't even look at the Torrix TE blanks they are brutes. 

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Essexalan

 

I would be very interested in a complete list. Understand if you can't find the manufacturer of some of those rods/blanks.

 

My Thinking on the skagits welded together is that it would give me length and mass, and keep it more uniform than going with a super heavy single head and a tip. I've heard that skagits tend to dump at the end of a long cast, which makes intuitional sense, given their mass layout, and hopefully this would help to prevent that to a degree. Just an experiment for me to test.

 

I hear you re Torrix TEs. The one I'm looking at is a 13ft 3lb model. Currently have a 14 ft blank for 800+ grains coming in and after that a possible 17'er project, but that's way way off. Ideas aren't the issue for me, it's funding to make all these crazy rods!

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Guys, I'm not the most experienced with TH rods - I have only been using one so far an 11.6 switch 8 wt. all I can say to everyone is KISS. Use it and go fishing!

If it's not working go heavier with the line until you find one that loads the rod best suited for your fishing. I am surf fishing central NJ in the back and out front and have caught more than my share this season. Have fun.

 

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