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Marinating tips please: time, ingredients etc.

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Hey everyone,

I’m guessing this has been discussed here so please forgive me if it’s too redunant. I’d appreciate folks here sharing your knowledge, expereince & opinions about marinating.

For a point of refferance I’m looking to marinate two items for grilling/smoking this Saturday. A couple big loundon broil’s (Shoulder), and a bunch of chicken things.

My goals for the marinade are as following in order of importance: add flavor, add moisture, tenderize.

My first question is time in marinade. For beef roasts & / or chicken parts w/ skin & bone on, is there such a thing as too long? I was thinking about three days for the beef & two for the chicken thighs. Is this okay?

My second question is about fresh vs dried ingredients in marinade. Many reciepes I’ve seen for marinde list dried ingredients ve fresh, e.g. garlic powder, oinion flakes, red pepper flakes & dried oregano vs fresh. Is there any good reason for this? I was considering useing fresh garlic, orageano, chopped peppers & chopped onions. Is there a differance?

Also, in you opinions, what are the critical ingredientes to marinade? My thinking is this, a fat / oil for fat soliable ingredients and to keep meat moist, an acid (e.g. citrus or vinigar) to help break down tissue in order to tenderize, alchohol (e.g. wine or bouron)  also to help break down tissue to tenderize (do alchohol & acid work in similar ways & or are they intechangable?) flavorings such as spices, vegtables etc. Finally, what is the purpose of salt in marinade. I personally enjoy salty tasing foods, but my wife is sensitvie to too much salt. I’ve heard that salt can help drive the marinade deeper into meat & make it more moist. Can it also make meat too salty tasing for some? How much is too much? What about meat tenderizer like “Accent” which I belive is MSG? Is there any good reason to use this or not?

One final question about acids, alcohols and MSG, do they do different or ugy things to chicken skin vs meat?

Any other things to consider for marinating beef roasts or bone in skin on chicken parts?

Thanks much in advance, I have every confidane we’re about to get a lesson in cullinary food science (I hope).

Best Ragards!

JD

 

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No science here... I throw in whatever I have.

 

Chicken - Italian dressing & Teriyaki works. or something mustard based.

London Broil - Teriyaki, Sweet Baby Rays  & red wine

 

Everything get GARLIC

Chicken get a LOT of herbs

Beef gets more pepper

 

If you don't have a bunch of stuff laying around World Harbors has a nice selection that makes a good base for marinades.

The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever that it is not utterly absurd

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Jim - I will get back to this later today, cause actually there IS a lot of science to it, and there is a lot more to marinading and tenderizing than most people think and a lot of mis-information abounds.

 

Just gotta do some stuff in the garden before the rain gets here, will be back later.

"You know the Bill of Rights is serving its purpose when it protects things you wish it didn't."

 

"You can no longer be oppressed if you are not afraid anymore - Unknown"

 

SOL Member #174

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48 mins ago, Steve in Mass said:

Jim - I will get back to this later today, cause actually there IS a lot of science to it, and there is a lot more to marinading and tenderizing than most people think and a lot of mis-information abounds.

 

Just gotta do some stuff in the garden before the rain gets here, will be back later.

Thanks Steve,

I figured as much. When I retire, I'd love to take a food science course. I think you referenced a guy here who I believe wrote a book on food science? Austin somebody? I should look it up & read it this summer.

Looking forward to your responses.

JD

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This is from McGee book On Food and Cooking.   Got to read some since we didn’t have power much of last week 

 

On salt/ brining- yes it can get salty, yes it helps meat retain moisture after cooking and yes it can help absorption of aromatics

 

 

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"I have ... put a lump of ice into an equal quantity of water ...  if a little sea salt be added to the water we shall produce a fluid sensibly colder than the ice was in the beginning, which has appeared a curious and puzzling thing to those unacquainted with the general fact."- Joseph Black

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Let me start here, and I will ad more later.

 

Marinading and tenderizing are two very different things.  Marinating flavors the meat but often, depending on the ingredients, does not tenderize it.

 

Tenderizing can be achieved in basically 3 ways.....mechanical, chemical, or with the use of heat. When you tenderize something, what are you are doing is either stretching or partially breaking down the long strands of protein.

 

Mechanical - Ever see chicken fried steak, or "cube steak" in the supermarket? Those have been mechanically tenderized by the use of a tool that you either roll over the meat or pierce the meat with 100's of holes. (They make a tool with like 50 spikes that you stamp down on the meat like a date stamp. They have another that is a roller with spikes and you roll it over the meat. But that is usually for thin cuts of meat. As the tiny holes/slashes are made in the meat, the long fibers/protein chains are cut making the meat more tender.

 

For something like a shoulder steak for London Broil, the most effective mechanical method is with a meat mallet. By pounding the meat (eww, that can be taken wrong :laugh: ), you are stretching and partially breaking the chains. For a think cut like that, it is best to come back with a fork and pierce it all over on both sides. That further tenderizes it like described above, but will also help when we get to marinade.

 

Heat - this is pretty obvious from things like BBQ pork , pot roast, stew, and so on. low and slow, sometimes wet, sometimes dry. The long slow heat breaks down collagen as well as muscular protein. But that isn't gonna be the case with your shoulder steak London Broil.

 

Chemical - This gets a bit confusing and where there is a lot of misinformation.

 

And that is a good place to break as I have to do some stuff ,and pay attention to Alton, as he will be on in a minute ;) ), but will be back as I get time to continue........

Edited by Steve in Mass

"You know the Bill of Rights is serving its purpose when it protects things you wish it didn't."

 

"You can no longer be oppressed if you are not afraid anymore - Unknown"

 

SOL Member #174

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my old standby for London broil was stab the living hell out of it both sides with 2 forks (like really stab the hell out of it) , next was marinate in low sodium Kikkomon Teriyaki, minced garlic and some Montreal steak seasoning for at least 12 hrs, then grill to medium and slice thin against the grain

If you try to change it, you will ruin it. Try to hold it, and you will lose it.

 

Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

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1 hour ago, Steve in Mass said:

Let me start here, and I will ad more later.

 

Marinading and tenderizing are two very different things.  Marinating flavors the meat but often, depending on the ingredients, does not tenderize it.

 

Tenderizing can be achieved in basically 3 ways.....mechanical, chemical, or with the use of heat. When you tenderize something, what are you are doing is either stretching or partially breaking down the long strands of protein.

 

Mechanical - Ever see chicken fried steak, or "cube steak" in the supermarket? Those have been mechanically tenderized by the use of a tool that you either roll over the meat or pierce the meat with 100's of holes. (They make a tool with like 50 spikes that you stamp down on the meat like a date stamp. They have another that is a roller with spikes and you roll it over the meat. But that is usually for thin cuts of meat. As the tiny holes/slashes are made in the meat, the long fibers/protein chains are cut making the meat more tender.

 

For something like a shoulder steak for London Broil, the most effective mechanical method is with a meat mallet. By pounding the meat (eww, that can be taken wrong :laugh: ), you are stretching and partially breaking the chains. For a think cut like that, it is best to come back with a fork and pierce it all over on both sides. That further tenderizes it like described above, but will also help when we get to marinade.

 

Heat - this is pretty obvious from things like BBQ pork , pot roast, stew, and so on. low and slow, sometimes wet, sometimes dry. The long slow heat breaks down collagen as well as muscular protein. But that isn't gonna be the case with your shoulder steak London Broil.

 

Chemical - This gets a bit confusing and where there is a lot of misinformation.

 

And that is a good place to break as I have to do some stuff ,and pay attention to Alton, as he will be on in a minute ;) ), but will be back as I get time to continue........

I would add to heat section: Pressure cook as it turns london broil butter tender in 30 min

If you try to change it, you will ruin it. Try to hold it, and you will lose it.

 

Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

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Let's see if I can get thru this before I have to run.

 

Chemically tenderizing meat.

 

Salt, eh, so so, there is a bit of controversy. Some think it tenderizes, others not so much. I am on the border on that, and since you said your wife is salt sensitive........

 

Alcohol like wine and such....that is for a marinade, no tenderization there, just flavor

 

Mostly what you need are enzymes...........Yes, wine and beer and vinegar have enzymes, but they are weak, and while they will tenderize meat, penetration can be in issue (stayed tuned for the marinades episode for why.)

 

The strongest meat tenderizing enzymes are Proteolytic Enzymes. Papain is one that is found in papaya,  bromelain in pinneapple, Actinidin in Kiwi, and then stuff like yogurt and sauerkraut contain similiar enzymes.

 

Some of these are extracted and spray dried into powders and added to commercial meat tenderizers. (One of which I will recommend for your London Broil when we get to it.)

 

The issue with these enzymes is that the ones in the first few fruit and even the yogurt (if you have a good one) I mentioned work very fast, like in a couple hours, in the case of pineapple less than that. Leaving the protein in them much longer than that, the meat breaks down to much and you can get mush.

 

Be aware that the juice from the fruits listed are speaking of fresh juice. Canned or bottled juice (like pineapple) have been heated and the enzymes have been killed...........and at that point, that juice becomes a marinade, not a tenderizer.....  ;)

 

I will go on to marinades next time. but just a note.....your chicken doesn't need a tenderizer, just a marinade perhaps.

 

 

 

 

 

 

"You know the Bill of Rights is serving its purpose when it protects things you wish it didn't."

 

"You can no longer be oppressed if you are not afraid anymore - Unknown"

 

SOL Member #174

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4 mins ago, Sandflee said:

I would add to heat section: Pressure cook as it turns london broil butter tender in 30 min

Well, yeah, but I don't have or ever cooked with one, but good point. Not great for Memorial Day fare though, perhaps in January in the deep freeze with carrots, potatoes, biscuits, and gravy..... ;)

 

"You know the Bill of Rights is serving its purpose when it protects things you wish it didn't."

 

"You can no longer be oppressed if you are not afraid anymore - Unknown"

 

SOL Member #174

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3 mins ago, Steve in Mass said:

Well, yeah, but I don't have or ever cooked with one, but good point. Not great for Memorial Day fare though, perhaps in January in the deep freeze with carrots, potatoes, biscuits, and gravy..... ;)

 

yep sir I do a take on peppered steak stew. perfect for a winter day

If you try to change it, you will ruin it. Try to hold it, and you will lose it.

 

Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

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2 hours ago, iceberg57 said:

Careful with your times there JD. too much time and you can actually pickle the meat rather than just flavor it. Overnight is usually plenty (if not too much in some cases) for a marinade to do its thing

 that's an interesting comment as I have been experimenting recently with how long I can marinade pork loin slices and chicken thighs in the fridge.

 

Jerk Pork - a 'Grace' Hot Jerk Sauce Marinade, I did for 72 hours and was fine. in fact it was awesome. the Jerk penetrated right into the middle of the pork, cut about .75" thick.  I was worried about the vinegar based sauce pickling or burning the pork but it was fine.I now want to try a whole picnic, and inject the paste into the middle to see how it comes out.

 

chicken thighs went 4 days with Nando's Hot Pirri Pirri Sauce. again, no issue.  

 

next up I'm going to try pork ribs with BBQ sauce for 72 hours. 48 was pretty damn good.

Disclaimer: the above may not represent the actual views of the writer, but may have been expressed sarcastically/ ironically with the sole intention of providing humour. That notwithstanding, the writer retains the right to be emotionally, psychologically or alcohol/substance impaired at the time of writing

(*member formerly known as 'guernseybass')

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Yes I did my London broil for 3 days twice, after stabbing the living hell out of it. It was fine. One mistake I did the 2nd time was sprinkling additional Montreal seasong after marinade. Made it too salty. I worry what a long soak w/acid  would do to chicken skin.

im also curious about the use of MSG as tenderizer.

JD

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50 mins ago, jjdbike said:

I worry what a long soak w/acid  would do to chicken skin.

JD

 

I have found that its pretty easy to turn chicken rubbery with the use of acid and long marinade times.  Going lighter on the acid and/or shorter marinade times can help.

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