aquaholik

New Promising Knot : FG Variation - Relix Knot

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1 hour ago, Killiefish said:

I guess I must have missed something.  You did part 1 10 times (2-1x10), part 2 (braid over braid, braid over leader and braid) 10 times and then a simple 4 alternating hitch finish.  But you said that it was not the part 2 that added the strength it was the sufficient number of 2-1 wraps in part 1 (in this case 10x not 6x).  Simply omitting part 2 is an option?  In that case why not do 15x part 1 then a whipped finish?

 

I get that the number of times is variable based on which braid and lb test and that adding a whip finish with a lighter braid helps.

Part 2 10 times is like an alternating half hitches. I can see it's purpose. It serves to keep the pull straight. Some time that helps a little. It never hurts to finish it that way but it certainly is time consuming. A whip finish more than anything, takes the load of the FG. It distribute the load and allows the line to reach near it's full ABS.

 

When I test the PR knot, I see that the initial widely spaced loose underwraps makes all the difference between a 70% PR knot and a 100 % PR knot. The knot slowly reaches its full ABS before it locks up.

 

If you look at the wraps of the FG, you notice that it's an interlocking wraps. It locks up real quick and doesn't move much despite the fact that it can be wrapped without tension as long as it is closely spaced. All PR knot creeps before full lockup and how much depends on the tension applied during the tying process.

 

If you want maximum FG knot strength, then finish it with a bobbin. If you insist on a tool free approach, then do the part 2 shown in the Relix Knot. It never hurts but I'm not sure the effort is worth the little additional improvement. 

 

Also note that I've tested the Relix Knot on poor FG performing braids. I've not done one on braids whose FG knot strength is 80% or higher. 

 

There is a lot of variables and I'm not sure the small % increase is worth doubling the normal 90 secs that is required for the FG knot. 

 

Put a strand of mono between the FG knot and Relix Knot and test it to failure and see if the Relix consistently wins. Put on a goggle and just test it with 20lbs braid. Anything higher and it's tougher to test it to failure. 

Edited by aquaholik

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Your observation here I think is the key:

 

"if you look at the wraps of the FG, you notice that it's an interlocking wraps. It locks up real quick and doesn't move much despite the fact that it can be wrapped without tension as long as it is closely spaced. All PR knot creeps before full lockup and how much depends on the tension applied during the tying process."

 

This is why I think the FG gets translucent up in front of the knot but not always in the rear.  It's locking early and the force is concentrated in the front part of the knot.  I wonder if the 2-1 pattern is looser, so it locks ups slower.  How about (ten) normal 1-1 FG turns in back, then tie ten of the 2-1, then finish with 1-2  hitches or one hitch, then a rizutto and done. 

 

 

 

Edited by Killiefish
brevity

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I may have gotten my front and back of the knot reversed.  Let me see if I can get it right...

 

Theoretically with a long, tube shaped knot one would want the part of the knot closest to the main line to tighten last.  Also, one would want that same last part to not pinch the main line (tighten down too much) but it should still tighten down some so that that portion adds some additional strength or durability.  Hence, in a 15-20 turn knot the first 7-10 or so turns should be the 1:1 method (one turn over, one under the leader) as this is the tightest grip and will hopefully tighten up first.  The second stage should be the one that still adds strength but does not pinch the main line.  I'm guessing that that could be either the 2:1 or the 2 over mono, 1 over braid plus mono step.  But which one pinches less and at the same time adds some strength to the knot??  Seems like Aquaholic suggests that the second stage could be the 2 over mono, 1 over braid plus mono.  But it could be the simpler 2:1 method also, depending.   So decide which and do that another 8-10 times.  The third part is the finish.  Could be as simple as 2 to 4 alternating half hitches or a whip finish with a lighter braid (suggested but fussy).

 

The precise number of wraps in each stage will vary depending on line thickness and whether the line is one of the slippery types that seem to perform poorly with a normal FG knot (less than 70%).  My guess is that with thicker lines (40-50lb braid) going to a similar strength leader, 12-15 total pairs of turns is plenty.  Also with the slippery ones, more turns will just mean that the part of the knot closest to the main line will overtighten unless one increases the number (or perhaps ratio) of 1:1 turns in part one, and/or uses a non pinch-inducing second stage (part two) that still adds some strength to the knot.  Finishing with more than a few half hitches (or worse a drop of glue) could also pinch the main line if the last part of the knot overtightens.  I'm seeing that the knot tends to fail near the main line in these really slippery braids.  Usually it is not the part of the knot nearest the leader that fails, so the goal is to concentrate the grip in the front part of the knot - the part toward the leader, that is actually wrapped up first.  Does this sound right??

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I like to think of the FG and PR knots like the Chinese finger trap. (Except: in the finger trap, your fingers don’t overlap where the two fishing lines enter from opposite sides and overlap each other.) In a finger trap, the section in the middle is where the tightest grip on the fingers occurs. I aim for the same thing in these two knots - tightest at the middle first and then spreading out through the whole knot becoming a different color as I tighten it. 

 

I have had snags where the knot seemed seemed to break too soon. On one FG, I knew the knot tightened too far back but it was strong enough so i left it. Snag. Pulled it out and came up with the remainder of the back side of the knot which had stretched and eaten through the back one inch of leader. Another time, on a hand tied PR knot, I cinched it down really tight and it bit into the fluoro up front becoming very translucent. In retrospect, it was also too short to be high percentage strength. Anyway, got snagged and pulled with rubber glove or something. The front of the PR knot ate through the leader with minimal pulling power and I got back the braid wrapped nub of leader. 

 

Main point is: the middle of the knot is where you want the biting to begin to spread out the load among all of the wraps. That, along with a longer knot and as little line twist as you can manage, will get the best results. For example, the FG knot that tightened at the back probably would have paired well with a bobbin finish to spread out the bite on the leader.

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We've got lots of great open mind thinker on here. Once you guys find some variations and combinations that improves on the FG, let me know and I'll test it. We already know that a double line FG is a hair stronger. The only problem with that is that the Bimini use to create the double line is not always 100%. So the knot use to create the double line becomes the weak link in the case of a double line FG. That's one main reason I do not do a double line FG, since my Bimini ranges from 55% to 100% and there is no rhyme or reason to it. Sometime it's the line, sometime is the number of turn, and sometime it's the tension and how nice the Bimini is formed.

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Are you using the bobbin for your biminis? If so, do you still get that much variation?

 

And, have you tried the light braid overwrap on a Bimini to see if that helps?

Edited by EricDice

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57 mins ago, EricDice said:

Are you using the bobbin for your biminis? If so, do you still get that much variation?

 

And, have you tried the light braid overwrap on a Bimini to see if that helps?

Never thought about spinning the bobbin to make a bimini. I can picture that now. The most consistently strong bimini is done with a drill AFAIK. Never tried to wrap the bimini either. 

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13 mins ago, aquaholik said:

Never thought about spinning the bobbin to make a bimini. I can picture that now. The most consistently strong bimini is done with a drill AFAIK. Never tried to wrap the bimini either. 

I have been pondering the bobbin Bimini for a while since the PR knot is so similar. Then, You linked the video from the guy who made the wind on leader. Same guy had a video with a Bimini done using a bobbin. Check it out. He says he consistently gets 95% plus, but I don’t know if he’s measuring started breaking strength or ABS. 

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And then I was thinking of building on his bobbin Bimini by going over the entire thing with a tight bobbin wrap of lighter braid. 

 

In other words, like the last step in the braid to braid PR knot you shared - except overwrap the whole knot. I tried that and it worked well! If I get time, I’ll share a pic. 

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1 hour ago, EricDice said:

And then I was thinking of building on his bobbin Bimini by going over the entire thing with a tight bobbin wrap of lighter braid. 

 

In other words, like the last step in the braid to braid PR knot you shared - except overwrap the whole knot. I tried that and it worked well! If I get time, I’ll share a pic. 

 That's the guy that built me the line tester. He did the bimini with the drill. I didn't know he did the bimini with the bobbin also. He's got great thinking outside the box like measuring the line mass instead of it's diameter. I'm sure he could deduce the diameter but he left that for me to figure out. He also got that great idea to bobbin wrap the FG as part of making a windon leader using a double line FG knot bobbin finished. He has great stuff on making a 100% terminal knot and also on  braid to braid connection using a PR knot. 

 

He would be stating knot strength based on ABS and not labeled or stated strength.

 

Just saw that video. Didn't know how I missed it. 

Edited by aquaholik

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I'll pass

Too complicated and takes too long... I can tie an FG in my sleep or the dark, same goes for the Bimini. Once I cinch my FG down it's never slipped or broken. 

that knot's gonna catch in the guides. 

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On 3/29/2018 at 8:58 AM, aquaholik said:

We've got lots of great open mind thinker on here. Once you guys find some variations and combinations that improves on the FG, let me know and I'll test it. We already know that a double line FG is a hair stronger. The only problem with that is that the Bimini use to create the double line is not always 100%. So the knot use to create the double line becomes the weak link in the case of a double line FG. That's one main reason I do not do a double line FG, since my Bimini ranges from 55% to 100% and there is no rhyme or reason to it. Sometime it's the line, sometime is the number of turn, and sometime it's the tension and how nice the Bimini is formed.

 

There are several ideas I'd like to test with the slippery braid types that don't hold a standard FG very well.   Starting with a 15 times (1 turn each side) FG  as the "control" method I think that the following might help if the knot is slipping and overtightening at the rear (main line) portion:

 

treatment 1:  10 turns each time with the 2:1 method, then 5 turns each side with 1:1 method.  Finish normally (one half hitch + tighten up , cut mono tag end, then 2 more alternating hitches)

 

treatment 2:  15 turns each time with the 2:1 method, then nothing.  Finish normally.

 

treatment 3:  5 turns 1:1, then 10 turns 2:1. Finish normally.

 

If this is done as an experiment I think it might answer the question of whether the slippage and over-tightening is because of the 1:1 method when used with really slippery (i.e., waxy coated) braid.

 

There is also the braid over mono, braid over braid plus mono method; but I think that just makes the knot too bulky.  The 2:1 method is still fairly compact, and I think will actually help reduce over-tightening.  I am just not sure where the over-tightening needs to be reduced. 

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Posted (edited) · Report post

Ok, so far for Berkeley Pro Spec Braid and Spiderwire Camo Braid in 65 lbs test to 80 lb leader, the 15 times 2-1 Relix Knot Combo with the dozen mono-mono/braid wraps improves on the 22 times 1-1 FG knot by about 10%.

 

The Relix Finish on the FG knot improves it by about 5%.

 

Edited by aquaholik

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3 hours ago, aquaholik said:

Ok, so far for Berkeley Pro Spec Braid and Spiderwire Camo Braid in 65 lbs test to 80 lb leader, the 15 times 2-1 Relix Knot Combo with the dozen mono-mono/braid wraps improves on the 22 times 1-1 FG knot by about 10%.

 

The Relix Finish on the FG knot improves it by about 5%.

 

I understand the first part - the 15 times 2-1 Relix Knot Combo - but not the second.  Do you mean that after doing the 2-1 wrap 15 times, you then do 12 more wraps by going over the mono, then over the mono+braid?  If so, I think I get it.  That is 27 separate wrap operations, right? And it buys you another 10% improvement over a regular 22 turn FG knot.

 

These two braids are the non-slipping kind of braid.  So there is an improvement in the non-slip braids by doing the above.  Compared to the 27 wraps, simply adding the Relix finish on these non-slip braids only gets you a 5% improvement, on it's own?  Am I reading this wrong?

 

Is there any improvement from the above with the more slippery braids??

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Yes. But the dozen mono - mono/ braid is really 24 wraps. The 15 2-1 wraps is 45 total, hence I made the FG 22 times on each side (44 total) to even out the length of the two knots. See the line test thread above. 

 

You understood correctly. Doing the dozen mono - mono/braid finish on the FG improves it by 5%. The 15 2-1 Relix with the finish above improves over the regularly finished FG by 10%.

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