PS

"Striper " lines ??

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I've been looking over rods, lines and all that good stuff and I'm curious , why are all the lines that target striper fly guys short and very heavy as in 2 line weights. I know some rods are fine with that but some not so much. Scott for example provides line rec's for Meridian but they are all tropical lines , permit, bones redfish and most of those are long head and either high end of standard or slightly heavy but not 2 classes up. Airflo has the long head, I like that and they give the weight but it is for 40' leaving me to guesstimate the 30' weight. I'm talking about mostly intermediate lines here. I know I can drop a line class and that is what I do in some cases , same with the OBS lines 

I did find Orvis makes lines that are close to standard only 3/4 heavy and picked one up the other day, nice line but wish it had a longer head.

 

If a 10 wt rod works best with a 305 grain line what is gained by another 10 wt. rod that works best with a 380 grain line ? Lets assume here a reasonable skilled caster and the most common flies we would toss for stripers and albies ? I am curious what you guys that have a decade or two under your belt in the salt have to say about it ? 

 

Is there another cold water intermediate line with a long head other than Airflo ?

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PS

 

It beats me to. All this probably started off when line makers realised so many of today’s salt water rods did not match up well with std AAFTM lines. So Rio upped their OBS by two. 

But a long belly line say  40 feet long in std AAFTM when all that head is outside of the rod tip is probably going to be one up as the std is given for first 30 feet of fly line.

There are several reasons why short heads are getting more popular with

some. Boat Fishers I am informed like them. Some  Surf Fishers like them as they only have to put 30 feet of line into the air and if wading deep less likely to tick the water. They are good for fast short range casting of large flies. They to a certain extent help not so good casters

Personally I don’t like them at all. 

I don’t know of another long belly but why worry the Airflow line is extremely good. The fact they give the weight of the 40 foot head is very useful . If you put all of that head into the air you know what weight of line you are working with.  Std AAFTM is 280 for 30 feet so I am guessing it will be over 300 grains.

 

If a rod works best with a given mass of fly line then its performance with a lighter of heavier line  in theory should be less. But more grains if casting to a head wind may help.

 

Rods have a fairly wide range of lines they will cast. When you first start it takes a while to get dialled in. A good Caster is at a huge advantage in working out which ones to match a rod with.

 Currently there is a strong tendency to  want to up line even before the Buyer gets the rod into their hands. You see evidence of this in the many posts on SOL.

 

Mike

Edited by Mike Oliver

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9 hours ago, PS said:

I've been looking over rods, lines and all that good stuff and I'm curious , why are all the lines that target striper fly guys short and very heavy as in 2 line weights. I know some rods are fine with that but some not so much. Scott for example provides line rec's for Meridian but they are all tropical lines , permit, bones redfish and most of those are long head and either high end of standard or slightly heavy but not 2 classes up. Airflo has the long head, I like that and they give the weight but it is for 40' leaving me to guesstimate the 30' weight. I'm talking about mostly intermediate lines here. I know I can drop a line class and that is what I do in some cases , same with the OBS lines 

I did find Orvis makes lines that are close to standard only 3/4 heavy and picked one up the other day, nice line but wish it had a longer head.

 

If a 10 wt rod works best with a 305 grain line what is gained by another 10 wt. rod that works best with a 380 grain line ? Lets assume here a reasonable skilled caster and the most common flies we would toss for stripers and albies ? I am curious what you guys that have a decade or two under your belt in the salt have to say about it ? 

 

Is there another cold water intermediate line with a long head other than Airflo ?

If you know the whole head length and weight it is much much better than knowing usually false line weight number!

 

Increasing line weight increase casting performance! From 305gr to 380gr it is 24% increase which is about 1.5 weight class which is significant and it increase casting distance about 8%. Or you can cast same distance about three hook size bigger fly or same range to much stronger wind.

 

My Airflo Cold Saltwater WF10Int has 39,5ft 400gr head which has 8ft front and rear tapers. At 36,7ft the head weights 380gr.

 

My current favorite line is Airflo C.A.S.T. which has much longer rear taper so it is more versatile and long line loops come very narrow and nice and it casts very far. WF9F head is 53.5ft 450gr. The C.A.S.T. is way overweight but in my experience Airflo tolerances are good so I assume all WF9F are close each other and WF8 and WF7 about 12% and 24% lighter. But then if AF get feedback and react...

 

A scale is essential for fly fishers to know what we cast! I coil the line length I weight and put it to a cardboard cup and hold the length mark parallel three inches out of cup rim holding the line six inches and weight comes very accurate. Some lines are stiff but adjusting the hand angle slightly while reading the weight the line stiffness effect is possible to rule out.

 

Esa

Edited by crunch

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Esa

 I have no doubt that you can put out all the head on the CAST line. Be interesting to see how many can also do this whilst fishing..

If say 9 feet of head is left inside the rod guides how much does this effect the cast?

Sounds a really interesting line.

 

Mike

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Good Morning Guys,

 

We are on the same page Mike, I'm not wild about he short heads (OBS) but do see where they can be a good fit. Short (70' & under) fast cast, not the best when presentation matters I would guess. I do like the Airflo Ridge and the 40' weight data is a time saver. I'm actually weighting a Orvis cold water Int. this morning Esa since they cannot tell me with confidence what the head actually weights. I also think the chart they provide might be misleading because the line will handle a good degree of overhang so I thing there is a "handling section". I have never tried the CAST , I'll have to take a peak and maybe try one at the shows this winter. My casting style when going long is a pick up & 3 cast delivery. I shoot line into the back cast before delivery. Short heads or short heads with handling section can put me way over rod weight. I find either the loop fails or I actually blew a top tip up. I talked with a rod designer and he told me a heavy line combined with an aggressive haul and if the timing is right can put greater load on the top section than any fish will ever manage. Combine this with an unexpected wind and you can increase the line load even more. There was a good piece I found here from a while ago by a fellow named Cary Greene I think it was, the math and line selection pretty good for a long carry/shoot. What I don't really know about lacking the experience on the salt is just how much or how far do we need to take this line weight advantage to effectively cast the common flies we deploy ? In a nutshell , I guess I'm asking is this overkill ? :)

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FYI for anyone interested , a little data on the Orvis cold water Intermediate. I have called support at Orvis and they told me the truth that in all honestly they are not 100% sure what the stats are and all they have to refer to the chart for another line in the series and it gives a weight of 260 grains first 30' and a 34' head. This is a WF9.

 

measuring out 30 ' I get .019 kg = 293.21 grains

measuring out 40' I get .022 kg  = 339.51 grains

 

Also if the line diameter and color change is indicative of the head length I think this line has a handling section or longer head closer to 39'. This line cast well so far, a little coiling in the head but seems to stretch out on it's own after a few cast. There is no coiling in the running line and it is sub 45* here when I have tried it.

 

I do not think the chart they referred to is the right one and they pretty much told me that was all they had to go on.

 

     

 

           

 

 

 

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PS the search for knowledge and solutions can never be overkill. It can be part of the fun and ambition to get better never hurt anyone.

ok if we look at distance as a measure the key requirements are that you can cast very well is a must. Then if you have a rod that works well with the mass of your chosen line and your line is say an Airflow Cold Water Intermediate  line then you are well equiped to reach for the sky.

If distance is a goal then think longer belly lines.

 

Mike

 

Edited by Mike Oliver

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Still my favorite fly line overall is .... Wulff Triangular Taper. With fly line it's not just about grain weight (with the mass being in a short head length) ... It's how that mass is distributed along the length of the head section ... affecting how the loop turns over.

 

After playing around with RIO Outbound lines ... opting for the Short head version (30 foot head section) I found that it tended to dump along with "over loading" the tip of my fly rods. The 36 foot version of the Outbound series is much better for me. However with my Wulff lines where the head section is typically 30 feet in length ... no such displeasure.

 

In the end ... while it's somewhat expensive ... you have to experiment with lines. If we're just talking about Striper fishing which usually occurs when it's pretty cold outside ... a line with good handling qualities when cold (doesn't stiffen up & kink) makes for the best "striper" line. That award goes to RIO or Airflo IMHO. As much as I love the Wulff tapers, when it's cold out I'm using RIO Coldwater lines .... or the old clear Airflo lines (which are like 15 - 20 years old).

 

For what it's worth. :cool:

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I am I guess what you call old school and I don't really care to or want to get wrapped up in grain weights and how that correlates to head length. 

 

I try to keep it as simple as I can for me. I buy 8 wt lines for my 8 wt rods, 9 wt line for my 9 wt rods, I buy the line that the rod supposedly rated for and that has served me extremely well over the many years. Only once was I disappointed with a line when I did that. My criteria for line are a 30 foot head and then 10 feet of handling line at a minimum going into a running line. For lines that have grain weight designations I do 250 for my 8, 300 for my 9 and 350 for my ten, a minimum of a 24 foot head sink tip for beaches and estuaries.

 

How a line casts is my first priority and at this stage of the game I tend to replace what I have with the same line as long as I can, I don't go looking for a new and improved different line every time. 

 

How a line behaves in adverse conditions is something we all deal with  I will deal with that until the line dies at the price they charge these days but since I always tend to get the same lines I have reduced that situation dramatically.

 

If someone asks my about what I fish for and how far I have to cast it is very rarely I think that a cast of more than 70 feet regardless of the type of fish is required. I can do that distance with no issues so I don't need to make a new and improved 70 foot cast. If I have to reach out to touch someone on occasion can do that too. 

 

 

Edited by bonefishdick

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Deleted - misread the OP !

 

For floating lines the SA Anadro lines are great - you can carry a lot of line in the backcast but they are heavier enough in the front to carry and turnover large flies. 

 

 

 

Edited by JRT

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