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Line testing, ABS and KBS, a work in progress.

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aquaholik

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20 lbs J Braid Chartreuse from Chasingtales:

 

 

Weigh a 20ft section, divided by 20 and got a mass per foot of 22.2 mg.

 

This is in stark contrast to the previous three spools of 20lbs J Braid that weighs consistently at 17.5 mg.

 

A quick glance and you can tell that it is slightly thicker:

 

 

4 ABS tests: 48.00, 42.5, 48.7, and 41.8 lbs. Note that there is nothing wrong with the scale. I learn to feel how much tension is on the line and can tell that I have to apply more pressure to turn the handle when the line broke at 48.7 vs when it broke at 42.5 lbs. There is some variability in this line and in some other line while some line are fairly consistently within 5 percent of each tes, this one has a spread of 13% within the 42-48 lbs ABS range. This will show up in the knot test samples.

 

So with an average ABS of 45 lbs, this line has a S/W of 2.03 which is about par for J-Braid 20 lbs. The other three samples broke around 36 lbs but it has less mass and a similar S/W of 2.06

 

10 turn as tied by Chasingtale: 23.00 lbs

 

TimS 15 turns Albright, tag end pass thru twice very carefully tied and drawn down: 27.50lbs, 25.30lbs

 

 

 

TimS 15 turns Albright, tag end pass thru three times and drawn down with Carmex: 22.80, 22.65 , 21.75 lbs ( this is probably where the ABS would test around 42 lbs)

 

Scoobydoo 12 turn Alberto with Carmex: 31.05, 34.3 lbs.

 

FG three tests: 35.15, 34.80, 30.15(again maybe the ABS is around 42 lbs in this section).

 

Scoobydoo 12 turns Alberto test 1 that broke at 31.05 lbs:

 

 

Now did it break higher than the Albright and the Alberto 10 wraps simply because it has more wraps? Alberto 12 turns is essentially Albright 24 wraps.

 

Scoobydoo 12 turns Alberto test 2, again drawn down with Carmex but it simply would not cinch up. Decided to test it anyway thinking the line tester would draw the knot tight. Wrong! The knot seized up and would not draw down. But it broke at 34.3 lbs! Why? The mono did not cinch down to cut the braid so the seized up knot acted like the FG.

 

 

 

So the Albright is still a 50-60 % knot with this sample, like most other samples of line.

 

The 10 wraps Alberto is only a 50-60% knot as demonstrated by Chasingtale and other samples that I tested.

 

12 wraps Alberto is 70-75% in this sample.

 

FG is also 70-75 % in this sample.

That's interesting.

 

I find that it cinches up much smother and easier.

 

I never did 12 or 10 turns up and equal down.

 

I generally stop at 8

 

I just grabbed my gf's burts bees and some 40 tracer and 50 blue wrist spool ande.

 

Wrapped 10 up and 10 down.....and it bunched a bit.

And did not cinch smoothly. ended up locking up like yours

 

I use this combo all the time...other than the added wraps...it didn't cinch as I have been accustomed to.

 

So i grabbed my trusty chap stick blue medicated..LOL

 

And did a 12/12 ((((NEver did more than 8 in my life)))) and my results were the same as yours.

 

With the fish in my fish tank giving me dirty looks.

 

I tried it again.......same thing...locked up.

 

10/10 now that was easy peezy....with my trusty rusty medicated chap stick...lol

 

I never realized how much more difficult doing 12 up and 12 down would be. You are correct...it turns into an FG about quarter an inch or so from the loop.

 

Do you normally tie using 12 / 12 albertos?

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"Panacheless is no way to go through life"

Tims

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Nope.I really do use FG 99.99% of the time.

 

12/12 is even harder to do with rough braid. J braid 20 is smooth and 10/10 is easy.

 

But there is no doubt that more wrap leads to more strength.

 

Look at the cinched up 12/12. It grabs the mono like FG and the only reason it failed before the FG is because the sharp bend entering and exiting the mono.

Edited by aquaholik
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Look at the cinched up 12/12. It grabs the mono like FG and the only reason it failed before the FG is because the sharp bend entering and exiting the mono.

That's why most knots break. There's a lot of shear pressure against the main line at the entry of the knot. Even one turn will do it. And that's why the FG is good.

 

One thing I learned from tying the FG is that it's possible for the main line to shear on the tag end of the mono leader. To mitigate that, I cut the tag at an angle. That gives it a point, so it kind of appears counter-intuitive but the shear effect occurs from the flat top edge of 90° cut mono. It's very sharp and can be seen easily with a magnifying glass. Cutting at an angle also produces the same shear, but the fact that the tip is smaller allows for some movement. Remember that the tag is within the finish, not the knot itself. At least, that's my theory and I haven't had any breaks since doing it this way.

 

I figured this out when tying in my garage. I tightened the knot up and it broke. I looked carefully at the knot to see where it broke and it was plain as day.

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Double line uni-uni where the braid is simply fold over to make a double line, carefully formed, 10 turns on braid and 7 turn on mono and it broke at 25.05 lbs, almost as good as the Alberto. Again, if you fish 30lbs line with 7-8 lbs of drag, which is quite a bit, this is your never fail me easy to tie knot.

 

Carefully formed 12 turn Albright:

 

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Failed at 18.65 lbs, braid just cut itself:

 

20160830_175954_zpscqb6bwcg.jpg

 

 

So for 4 strand Tufline XP 30lbs test, we have the following results:

 

ABS 43.3 lbs ( I can get up to 48lbs but with a faster pull which I don't think it's real world)

 

Weight 23mg/foot. Diameter of .296mm or .0116 inches

 

FG(15 wraps each) knot strength 35 lbs.

Bimini(40 wraps) to Bristol 36.90 lbs

Alberto(8 wraps up 8 wraps down) 27.65 lbs

Double uni-uni (braided line folded over, 10 wraps on braid, 7 on mono) 25.05 lbs

Single line uni 20.90

And 12 turn Albright(which looks so pretty and similar to Alberto knot) 18.65 lbs.

 

Hell that looks almost identical to the IGFA knot test of some 30lbs braid on the link I posted!

This is the only post where I see the number of wraps mentioned that are used for the FG.  On average for my combo of 10 lbs braid main and 10 lbs flouro leader, is there a "standard" for how many FG wraps to use?  For example, if 15 wraps is good, then, are 25 wraps better?
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This is the only post where I see the number of wraps mentioned that are used for the FG. On average for my combo of 10 lbs braid main and 10 lbs flouro leader, is there a "standard" for how many FG wraps to use? For example, if 15 wraps is good, then, are 25 wraps better?

I use 15-20 wraps but for new Nanofil to 15 lb mono, I use higher number of wraps since it's really slick. Soft smooth thin line only takes 12-14 wraps to grab.

 

I tested Gliss in 40 lbs and was disappointed in its FG strength. So I upped the number of wraps to 30 and it made no difference. But the Bimini made a big difference but that's not always the case with other line.

 

I think the FG grabs at the start of the knot and anything beyond that doesn't really do anything.

 

I'll test a 3 inch long FG on Monday to simulate a PR knot and see what happens. That should be at least 50 wraps.

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Practical fishing knots are ones we can tie with wet hands, in the dark, with the wind screaming or in a bouncing boat. In my opinion, if you need three hands, chapstick, pliers or tools, the knot is impractical. Being able to re-rig quickly, while fishing, is more important than getting 5% or even 10% more knot strength. People fishing 40# braid with 50# leader and tying knots that break at 30# aren't ever going to break their knot fighting a fish. They aren't ever going to know their knot is only 75% of their line strength. Ever. 

 

Another incredibly important knot requirement is that it must be durable. Very durable. Like casting through the guides 100 times an hour durable. 

 

This research is excellent for scientific purposes...for fishing purposes, knots that can't be tied in the dark, with wet hands and the wind blowing should probably land in a separate category - like knots you tie at home or something. Otherwise, everyone would be using Bimini Twists for everything ;)

 

Which leads me to another question - is the Bimini still the strongest knot?

 

TimS

Show someone how to catch striped bass and they'll be ready to fish anywhere.
Show someone where to go striped bass fishing and you'll have a desperate report chaser with loose lips.

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Practical fishing knots are indispensable; however, spare spools are a wonderful thing.  i start out the evening with my leader fastened with a PR knot.  Should I break off on a kelp ball or something, then out comes the spare spool that also has the leader fastened with a PR knot.  After that, it's practical knot time,but that has seldom been the case for me.  (knock on wood) No boulder fields in my area.  Just sandy beaches.

 

Practical fishing knots are ones we can tie with wet hands, in the dark, with the wind screaming or in a bouncing boat. In my opinion, if you need three hands, chapstick, pliers or tools, the knot is impractical. Being able to re-rig quickly, while fishing, is more important than getting 5% or even 10% more knot strength. People fishing 40# braid with 50# leader and tying knots that break at 30# aren't ever going to break their knot fighting a fish. They aren't ever going to know their knot is only 75% of their line strength. Ever. 

 

Another incredibly important knot requirement is that it must be durable. Very durable. Like casting through the guides 100 times an hour durable. 

 

This research is excellent for scientific purposes...for fishing purposes, knots that can't be tied in the dark, with wet hands and the wind blowing should probably land in a separate category - like knots you tie at home or something. Otherwise, everyone would be using Bimini Twists for everything ;)

 

Which leads me to another question - is the Bimini still the strongest knot?

 

TimS

Edited by bass11
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Biggest advantage that this testing revealed is that FG knot strength (I consider this knot practical and easy even after tying 2-3 dozens Alberto) is relatively high in 10-20 lbs braid. If you're tying FG in Fireline Crystal 10lbs( or 10 lbs PP, Stealth, or Suffix) , you get a KBS of 24lbs which is only a couple of pounds below the Albright or an 8 wraps Alberto tied with 30 lbs braid but you get the advantage of a much thinner yet manageable line. An FG knot tied with 10lbs braid is going to be stronger than an 8 wraps Alberto tied with 20 lbs braid. If you don't need abrasion resistance, then changing your knots allow you to go lighter and cast and cut thru current better.

 

Also the test show that a 10-12 wraps Alberto is clearly stronger than the 8 wraps Alberto and 12 wraps Albright.

Edited by aquaholik
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 yeah thats exactly what i was thinking hence my interest .  i want the best knot that i can practically tie. fg aint that hard. since you started this thread i have learned it and practiced it a bit....however where i live and fish cold hands are not an issue. i fished both sport and commercial in ak. for 14 years so i'm hip to the numb finger thing. you stare at them and tell them what to do and they just can't

"what good are tractors without violins" ?   jose figueres

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I read that also................Paulus says the FG is NG.........

"Law enforcement’ is not something sovereign citizens seize from police officers. It is a societal function that citizens delegate to civil police.

In so doing, we do not abdicate our own sovereignty, nor our duties as citizens. Ultimate responsibility is still ours. When those we hire as our “Protectors” are either unwilling or unable to perform that function at the critical moment, there is no law, nor standard, that says we cannot perform it for ourselves"........ John Farnam.

 

"Gird Your Loins"

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I read that also................Paulus says the FG is NG.........

FG takes alot of practice to tie consistently.  I like it.  Not only for it's strength..but how long I can leave it on the spool and not worry about retying.

 

What does he prefer?  Pr/ Mid knot?

"Panacheless is no way to go through life"

Tims

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  • TimS unpinned this topic

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