aquaholik

Line testing, ABS and KBS, a work in progress.

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  following closely...again, much appreciated

Mark, have a look here:

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And look at the 20lbs braid that we tested like Spiderwire Stealth and Fireline Braid. Our numbers are either dead on or about 5 percent from the IGFA test equipment.

 

Now look here for IGFA knot test:

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj6me3Hz-nOAhUTySYKHes9BccQFggeMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.igfa.org%2FAbout%2FTesting-Monofilament-to-Braided-Spectra-Connections.aspx&usg=AFQjCNHoKPlogLdzj50sS2uE1P0VobULRg&sig2=ousMcE2AW9673Krjp8FdgA

 

Now the number for uni-uni is a little misleading. That is because it is a double line uni and the IGFA is wrapping both legs of the braid onto the testing equipment. You can get this results with the uni-uni if you form a bimini first. But forming the double line using a spider hitch will substantially weaken the knot and you will find that the uni hold while the spider hitch breaks first. Same with Bristol knot. It tested high because it's a double line knot. In real world, the Bristol knot or No Name knot is only as good as the Bimini knot that is used to double the line.

 

And I've found out something just now. I can get higher results by increasing the breaking force to 1lb/secs. Previously in all my tests, I was increasing the force at a rate of .25lb/sec. I thought I could maximize the ABS or KBS by pulling slower. I couldn't have been more wrong. I could get a result that was 10% higher by going faster. But to me, going slower resembles real world condition more. So I am not going to redo all my test just to get a higher number.

 

 

The motivation behind going faster was that I could not reproduce Paulus's test results on the exact samples that I've sent him. His results was 10-15% higher on the EXACT same samples that I sent down to Australia. Well now I can get within 5%. I think IGFA protocol is 20cm/min, that translates to 8 inches/minute. THat sounds slow but braid doesn't stretch much so I think I went even slower. I generally take 2-3 minutes per line test and now I need to measure how much the braid stretch in that 2 -3 minutes before it broke. I can almost guarantee that it doesn't stretch 8 inches.

Edited by TimS
please don't post commercial links

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 the second link did not work for some reason but anyway what i have taken from this so far is that i will be switching from the alberto to the fg. i will be staying with my suffix 832 as it is not the best at knot strength but it was in the  95% range. my understanding is they used a bimini for the knot

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I'm curious how the tests would compare after the lines already tested  were compared to themselves after use.

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I'm curious how the tests would compare after the lines already tested  were compared to themselves after use.

I tested Spiderwire Ultracast 15lbs test. When new, FG knot was 26.1. After half a season, it dropped to 23.7.

 

Nanofil 10lbs did not drop much suprisingly. Testing a worn but unfrayed section and it only dropped a pound in ABS and KBS.

 

I fixed the second link.

 

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Edited by TimS
commercial link removed

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I'm curious how the tests would compare after the lines already tested  were compared to themselves after use.

 

 i used to be a commercial fisherman. for bottom longlining you have a breakway strap on your anchors so that if you hang one you will lose it but not the much more valuable longline. we were at the dock delivering and my crew informed me we were out of breakaway straps (5/16 poly). we  had a 5000 lb scale hooked to the crane, so i told them to break a piece of normal line (3/8 poly) using the scale and crane. it broke around 2000lb which is about right. i then told them to take a file and scuff up some 3/8 poly and we would make our own breakaway line. my attention was diverted and when i looked back they had a piece of line hooked to the scale ready to break, but it was barely scuffed at all. i started to stop them but thought nah, let em see for themselves it needs more scuffing.

i was shocked to see the line break at 1200 lb. 40% weakening with very light scuffing. i learned a lesson that day

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 aqua, thks for the new link. wow...huge difference in knots. have you tried the bristol vs the fg ?

In order to tie the bristol or no name or yucatan, you need to form a double line in braid. In the bristol knot, the mono grabs both legs of the braid making it a very strong connection. The mono forms a barrel connection similar to a proper snell knot. It is far stronger than any knot besides a double line FG knot. In testing situation, more than likely, both legs of braid are wound on to the testing machine, since they are testing the braid-mono connection. That makes for exceptional test results since the braid is doubled. EDIT: looking at the IGFA test, it looks like they are not winding double line braid to test it since it only breaks around 36 lbs for 30lbs braid. That break more than likely occur at the bimini connection and not at the bristol connection. Now for the double line uni-uni, the 25 lbs average break strength probably occurs at the uni-uni connection and not at the bimini.

 

In real world fishing, the knot that forms the double line in braid is the weak link. So your bristol knot is only as good as the weakest link that creates the double line. That is why a Bimini knot is used to create a double line. Using a surgeon loop or spider hitch will make for a weak double line knot and you might as well tie a single line uni-uni in some cases.

 

So when we are testing the bristol knot, we are really testing the bimini knot or whatever knot that is used to form the double line. Before I learn to tie the FG knot 4 years ago, all I used was bimini to bristol knot. That combination, believe it or not, is stronger than the FG knot in higher test braid like 30lbs and up. I'll do some test to confirm it.

Edited by aquaholik

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How does the Bimini/Bristol knot cast?

Assuming a fixed spool reel (large spool dia) with the knot ON the spool with a couple of turns of leader around the spool?

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So far, for my purposes at least, it boils down to main line to braid or mono leader: FG or Bob Sands, but always willing to try an alternative, if it is strong and casts nicely

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Ok I tested a 10 if not 12 years old sample of Tufline XP 30lbs. By the famed Paulus of Just Paulus fishing, he has the diameter pegged at .296 mm. I sent three samples of FG knot that I tied down to him two years ago and what he got in three tests were : 34.85, 37.32, and 33.66 lbs, about 35 lbs average FG knot test.

 

20160829_161126_zpshowx3f1w.jpg

 

This very sample has a weight of 460mg per 20ft of line or 23 mg per foot. Compare the diameter and weight to some of the charts discussed and to Paulus website, this is typical of a .300 mm line which has an ABS of anywhere between 40 and 48lbs, typical of 30lbs braid of average diameter.

 

20160829_162149_zpseivqkoyb.jpg

 

20160829_162200_zpsymsiznuz.jpg

 

I added the 10g weight just to make sure that the scale is accurate. In two test of ABS, I got 43.45 lbs and 43.2 lbs. So this line has a S/W ratio of 1.88, not bad for  a 12 years old line. It looks like the weight is the same as Jerry Brown Solid 30lbs which breaks at 47 lbs. It is also similar to 30lbs Power Pro in S/W ratio. So it's a typical average performing USA made braid.

 

Testing is simple, line goes around the two little metal cylinder 6 or 7 times, one time around each of the big PVC bollard and then around the two metal cylinders again. At each end of the metal cylinder, there is barely any register-able force since the number of turn around the other metal cylinder reduces the force substantially.

 

20160829_162804_zpscjauskzs.jpg

 

20160829_162820_zpszy9063l7.jpg

 

Screenshot_2016-08-30-17-16-31_zpsvk7yvj

 

Two FG knot tests and I've got 34 lbs and 37 lbs, so  82% KBS/ABS.

 

Two Bimini to Bristol knot tests. First one broke at 37.6, the Bristol knot held, the Bimini broke:

 

Screenshot_2016-08-30-16-00-23_zpsqc94dj

 

20160830_160955_zpspe4nxoqt.jpg

 

 

Second one broke at 36.2 lbs. This time the Bristol broke, the double lined braided shredded:

 

20160830_163603_zpsywrwnxuf.jpg

 

I did one single line uni-uni and got 20.90 lbs. If you fish your 30lbs test with 7lbs of drag, you should be safe with a uni-uni if that's your preferred knot.

 

I then test a carefully formed Alberto Knot, 8 wraps up and 8 wraps down and careful cinching of both braid and mono:

 

20160830_165244_zpsi4vnptf8.jpg

 

One test and I got 27.65 lbs, not bad at all, 64% VS less than 50% for single line uni-uni.

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Double line uni-uni where the braid is simply fold over to make a double line, carefully formed, 10 turns on braid and 7 turn on mono and it broke at 25.05 lbs, almost as good as the Alberto. Again, if you fish 30lbs line with 7-8 lbs of drag, which is quite a bit, this is your never fail me easy to tie knot.

 

Carefully formed 12 turn Albright:

 

20160830_175205_zpshcj5bxef.jpg

 

Failed at 18.65 lbs, braid just cut itself:

 

20160830_175954_zpscqb6bwcg.jpg

 

 

So for 4 strand Tufline XP 30lbs test, we have the following results:

 

ABS 43.3 lbs ( I can get up to 48lbs but with a faster pull which I don't think it's real world)

 

Weight 23mg/foot. Diameter of .296mm or .0116 inches

 

FG(15 wraps each) knot strength 35 lbs.

Bimini(40 wraps) to Bristol 36.90 lbs

Alberto(8 wraps up 8 wraps down) 27.65 lbs

Double uni-uni (braided line folded over, 10 wraps on braid, 7 on mono) 25.05 lbs

Single line uni 20.90

And 12 turn Albright(which looks so pretty and similar to Alberto knot) 18.65 lbs.

 

Hell that looks almost identical to the IGFA knot test of some 30lbs braid on the link I posted!

Edited by aquaholik

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