aquaholik

Line testing, ABS and KBS, a work in progress.

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The Cliff's note version of this thread:

 

The dropbox permalink below contains the latest data on line testing and will be updated with each new line test.

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/z0rt7cbdccq2on7/Latest Braid Test.xlsx?dl=0

 

The data contained in the Excel file is the cooperation of the members of this forum and other fishing forums. Lines were sent to me and suggestions were made to make the results more useful.

 

The data contained are the line's labeled strength, the line's tested actual breaking strength, the line's mass(10ft of line is weighted then divided by 10 to get mass/ft), the line's strength to weight ratio(S/W), the line's derived diameter in inches and mm, as well as the knot strength of the line(mainly FG and PR knot strength).

 

Stop here and proceed no further if all you want are test results.

 

Testing the ABS(actual breaking strength) without taking a mass measurement would be useless since it does not give us a sense of the quality of the line. 10 lbs line that breaks at 30 lbs is not necessary the best 10 lbs line if the diameter is the same as most other brand's 20 lb test that breaks at 35 lbs.

 

With the help of Paulus just fishing and the members of this forum and the line tester creator who came up with the idea of measuring the mass instead of trying to pinpoint the diameter of a line that is generally flat when compress with a caliper, we were able to derive the line's diameter given its mass.

 

The basic idea is that Density = Mass/Volume. The density of Spectra and Dyneema is well known and published by Honeywell and it is 0.97 g/cm3. The density of water is 1 g/cm3 . This explains why all the lines I've tested float. So I sent lots of line to Paulus Just Fishing and he tested the  ABS and measured the line's diameter. Using the same exact lines, I measured their masses and was able to correlate a density range of .70 to 1.0 g/cm3. This was done at the time without realizing that the density of Spectra and Dyneema is  0.97 g/cm3. It was nice to know that Paulus measurement is accurate enough and our precision scale is precise enough to get a result that agrees with published data on Spectra and Dyneema.

 

Since we know that all braid are not spun the same way and that at the very best, no matter how tight it is weaved, the final density can not exceed 0.97 g/cm3. In fact, it is safe to assume an average of 0.85 g/cm3 to account for various different weaves among 4 strands and 8 strands line. Using that number yields a diameter that is within 6% of the MINIMUM diameter possible given the mass of the line and a maximum density of 0.97 g/cm3.

 

Now that we have that out of the way, diameter is easily derived by extracting the line's diameter from it's volume. The volume is the volume of a cylinder that is 10ft high and whose radius is 1/2 the line's diameter. This is what happen when we shape the line into a round object. It is a cylinder with tiny diameter. Excel makes it easy once all units are properly adjusted. You can look at our derived diameters and you will find that it comes within 10 percent of Paulus measurement.

 

Yes we did go to great length to validate our method since posting a line's actual strength without it's accompanying mass is pretty useless since it does not give us a sense of "quality" of that line. Mass translates to diameter and while we are accustomed to diameter affecting casting distance in spinning reel, we should easily convince ourselves that all things being equal, a 1/4 oz jig loaded by the bend of a fishing rod can only have so much energy to carry a mass of line so far. The heavier the line, the less distance we will achieve.

 

The line tester used below has two very large 4 inch PVC arbors. Testing have shown that by bypassing such large arbors and only using the 1/2 inch metal round rods reduces the ABS measurement. This has to do with the sharp bend of a small metal rod. For the ABS test, there is no knot and lines are simply wound around metal rods and PVC arbors. Only a rubber band is required to hold the line in place since the force on that part of the line is reduced greatly with 12 or more turn around each metal rod. A picture is worth a thousand word and if you dig thru the threads in here, you will see videos of tests done here.

 

5c4a501633f34_Resizedtester.jpg.3cff923717c069569abd3ac2b8b02563.jpg

 

20190124_180525.jpg.c263c1e30790c4c0cc407f34fbd3b939.jpg

 

For the knot test, the knot is placed between the large PVC arbors.

 

Edited by TimS
edited per author's request

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Kudos on doing your homework.  New braid is wonderful stuff and for the few that actually do test their line, their new line figures are what tend to stick in their mind.  Braid is not highly regarded for its abrasion resistance characteristics.  Of course it depends upon how often one breaks off and reties, but a 10-20% loss in break strength from new results is probably very optimistic for most fishermen.  Although testing is rough on spring scales, for those willing to put forth the effort and do their own homework, the truth will prove most enlightening..............or you can continue to place your faith in advertising hype.

 

Even with the line testing machine constructed and given to me, I'm still too lazy to test more line. I do however, test the ABS at least once on all line I've purchased from EBAY just to make sure it's real. I need to weigh them to get an idea of line diameter. Basically line weight per ft correlates to line thickness. Here's the link to see the testing so far. I mainly test FG and Bimini KBS since that's what I found to test the highest and I can tie an FG knot blindfolded.

 

20160402_124009_zpscsv2l5yw.jpg

 

https://drive.google.com/open?id=17STHaxflZeKt5QgnslQg3uAPFbXSj4w3r21gkOz9xx8

 

Line 1 to 45 are a friend's test results. He tests the higher test stuff. I mainly test the 20lbs and under line. The line per foot method basically weighs 10ft of line to get an idea of the thickness. If you want to compare the thickness of one 30lbs line to another 30lbs line, look at their weight. The heavier one per foot will always be thicker since they are all mainly spectra or dyneema.

 

Look at 30lbs Seaguar Smackdown. It's ABS is 31 lbs and it's line weight is 14 mg. So of course it will test lower than say power pro 30lbs which weighs 21 mg and has an ABS of 46.2 lbs. Looking at the Strength to Weight ratio will give you an idea of which line has the best strength/diameter ratio.

 

It will also help you look past the marketing gimmick like my 10 lbs test is the strongest in the world or my 30lbs test Seaguar Smackdown is the thinnest 30lbs braid in the world. They can all make that claim by just varying the diameter of the line. Make the 10lbs test thicker and claim to be the strongest 10lbs braid in the market. Make the 20lbs thinner(yet still breaks around 20lbs unknotted) and claim it to be the thinnest 20lbs braid anywhere(Gliss is a good example and so is Samurai Braid and Daiwa Saltiga Surf).

 

Most people who use those really thin but highly rated line eventually dumps the line since it breaks MUCH lower than the LABELED strength when you add knot to the equations(Nanofil(notoriously bad KBS using anything but FG knot), Gliss, Samurai Braid, and Smackdown are good example).

 

Yes Seaguar Smackdown 30lbs braid is expensive and is the thinnest 30lbs braid in the world(as far as I know), and that's because it's diameter is about the same diameter of most USA 10lbs braid, and its ABS is also similar to those 10lbs braid. Compare Seaguar Smackdown 30lbs braids to Spiderwire Stealth and Suffix 832 in 10lbs. Both of those weighs a hair under the Seaguar Smackdown 30lbs and they break just a hair under also. Fireline Crystal in 10lbs is also very impressive at 28.55 lbs and a weight of 13.5 mg.

 

You can also see that Gliss 24 lbs is about 9 to 11 mg depending on which spool you get. It's ABS is no where near 24 lbs and it is indeed thinner than any 10lbs braid. And of course, it's ABS is also lower than most 10lbs braid.

 

When doing KBS, I find that lines that are smooth seems to have better KBS/ABS ratio with FG and Bimini knot. Course line suffers with Bimini knot. There are exceptions and there is no way to know until you test it.

 

Also it is a given that line will lose 10-20 % knot strength after it's coating wears off.

 

No one line is perfect for every situation. Sometime you need those extra thin line to cut thru currents. Some time you need those stiffer line for reels that don't handle braid well. I wouldn't give my kid a reel lined with Gliss but I can give them a reel full of 10 lbs Fireline Crystal and not worried about loose loops and wind knots.

Edited by bass11

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Good stuff.

 

I'm spooling up with some more fins 40 g

 

I'll send ya some if you want to do some testing once I decide which reels to strip and spool.

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Good stuff.

 

I'm spooling up with some more fins 40 g

 

I'll send ya some if you want to do some testing once I decide which reels to strip and spool.

Send me about 20 ft of each line test. The weight of it should give me a good idea of its diameter.

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 Awesome post! :D.

 

Tell me, have you determined the weight to diameter ratio? I love that you have figured out that weight is proportional to ABS as it should be (they all use the same Dyneema to make their lines) as long as they are of the same manufacturing standard. All the testing I have seen on Paulus' site also shows that lines almost uniformly have an ABS proportional to their actual thickness (regardless of rating).

 

Should be as you expect proportional to the diameter however, some lay better or worse on the spool? 

 

Edited by johndtuttle

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Awesome post! :D.

 

Tell me, have you determined the weight to diameter ratio? I love that you have figured out that weight is proportional to ABS as it should be (they all use the same Dyneema to make their lines) as long as they are of the same manufacturing standard. All the testing I have seen on Paulus' site also shows that lines almost uniformly have an ABS proportional to their actual thickness (regardless of rating).

 

Should be as you expect proportional to the diameter however, some lay better or worse on the spool?

 

I think I have enough test that matches Paulus like fireline crystal 8 and 10 lbs, fireline 8lbs, and I actually sent Paulus enough differrent lines that I still have so I can correlate his listed diameters to the weights that I've found. I think diameter measurement are futile since the shape of braids varies so much. Weight per 10 or 20 ft is a better indicator of how well they should cast and how thick they are. I can't take credit for that outside the box thinking. The member that built me the device came up with that idea and I think it's ingenious.

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I think I have enough test that matches Paulus like fireline crystal 8 and 10 lbs, fireline 8lbs, and I actually sent Paulus enough differrent lines that I still have so I can correlate his listed diameters to the weights that I've found. I think diameter measurement are futile since the shape of braids varies so much. Weight per 10 or 20 ft is a better indicator of how well they should cast and how thick they are. I can't take credit for that outside the box thinking. The member that built me the device came up with that idea and I think it's ingenious.

 

 

Yes, and far easier to accurately measure weight rather than diameter.

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This is great! I just bought some 10# Diawa J-Braid to load on my Stradic CI44000 for bones and albies. Thought that I might be under gunned till I read the results of your tests.

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https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1MOWEGRsEX1pqhEWyWsMUzI57UeLOpn6LLphwTKMH100/edit#gid=0

 

More J braid sample testing from jwongbp. You can see that J braid can be real good or real bad depending on the spool that you get. No consistency, even from the same manufacturer. So far we got J braid in 20 lbs to break anywhere from 30 to 36 lbs but the 8lbs sample is pretty bad and so is the 50lbs sample when we examined it's S/W ratio.

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Have you seen any differences between colored vs uncolored or coated vs uncoated braids?  In terms of strength to weight?

 

I'm still curious if there is any difference.  :)

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Nope, you would think the colored one would weigh more but my sample of Gliss white is heavier than the green one. Colored Nanofil whether high vis or low vis has the same S/W ratio. Actually Nanofil has consistent S/W ratio across sample size where as J Braid can have great S/W in one size and really poor in another size. On the surface 50 lbs line breaking at 51 lbs seems bad since most braid overtest but once you figure in the weight, the line is really good or really bad depending on how thick or thin it is since the weight doesn't lie. I am going to start weighing a 20ft section in stead of 10 ft section for more accuracy.

 

One good thing about J braid so far is that it has great FG knot strength but then again, so is most smooth braid. The revealing thing about this test is that you can confirm why people complain about Kanzen, Gliss, Samurai Braid, Smackdown. People are used to braid breaking well above the labeled strength and when it doesn't, it gets a bad rap since the labeled strength and lower diameter listing inspired untested confidence in the line that soons turn to skepticism when the line starts to break well below expectation.

 

I will actually do a few knots head to head to show the difference in KBS. While the uni-uni may work fine with line that overtest like most power pro, it's weakness is revealed when the line is accurately rated and KBS are now only 50-60 % of labeled strength.

Edited by aquaholik

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