Distance Surfcasting Rod

[CaryGreene]

gary & mike, thks for the informative posts

My pleasure Mike. Better technique trumps a fancy rod any day of the week!

[CaryGreene]

Cary,

 

I just bounced in and did my post before I read any others so apologies for going over similar ground to yourself.

 

Getting as much of our body as we can into the cast and the quality of the footing are great points that you make.

 

The Unitech Cast is a good cast but by swinging the lure/lead away from the rod and bringing it back so it almost touches the blank will allow the caster to drop the rod tip almost to the floor before starting the forward part of the cast. This teeing up process is done in a very much crouched position. This allows the knees to bend and then the lower and upper legs and body turn can add very significantly to the cast. It allows the Caster to get under the rod. It also very significantly increases the rod arc. It is a bit like a weight lifter who drop to one knees when making a snatch lift. They can get right under neath the bar and use those leg muscles to aid the lift.

 

If the Original Poster would like it I can probably get permission to send to him a link of my friend casting his Sling Shot using a dynamic Unitech. Ok in this video he is using quite a long drop and he is not using a crouch body position to tee up the lure. But on the Canal he will not mostly be able to do a low body tee up because of the sloping banks and terrain. But even so he is getting measured casts of 130 yards with 3.5 oz Pencils. The amount of rod load is very scary. With a std OH thump the blank hardly bends at all. This is not a rod for new Guys. It really is a 5 oz rod more like a mini UK Beach Caster. Its impressive but only in the right hands.

 

When I get to the Cape in late May I hope to have a new camera where the video works and again if the OP would like it I can do a short video of how to set up a Low body tee up of what I call a dynamic Unitech cast.

It is not only powerful but its accurate and pretty safe. It is also easy to learn.

 

Cary I don't know of the formula to which you refer but I have a very clever Engineering friend who probably could develop one or knows of one.

 

The other constants of course is that the rod has to move around the same arc and at the same speed for every cast.

 

35 years ago when short as in 11 feet 10 inch Pendulum designed Tourney blanks ruled the casting courts Paul Kerry won with casts of around 244 yards 5oz leads. Over the years as bigger and bigger and very strong guys entered the casting comps rods moved up to 14 feet and a bit and reels got mounted very low down on the butts. Only way you can control long rods. We are talking conventional reels. Distances now are up to and over 300 yards. So longer rods can cast further and that's due to the fact that in a given time period the rod will travel around a greater arc which gives more speed to the lead compared to a shorter rod.

But fishing with rods like these is to be honest not much fun as they hardly bend. Landing a fish of even 10 lbs is darned hard work and so is just reeling in the lead and bait.

But in real life on the beach few Guys can cast much further than 150 yards with even small baits and these are the very good Casters. Bait gets smashed especially worms and fish bait flies off the hooks anyway due to the pressures involved.

 

Back 30 years ago you could buy high performance beach rods that also fished quite nicely. Rods Like the Xziplex 2500 and 1005 and NG1. Still very technical rods that needed a pendulum cast to get them to load up. OH thump forget it.

 

I have lost interest these days in the latest offerings as its pointless as we have no decent sized fish to target off UK beaches. 

There is a reason why I come across the Pond twice a year to engage with your Stripers. 

 

Any chance you might make the Cape early June time?

 

Mike

Hi Mike,

 

It would be interesting to see what your buddy's formula looks like. My Cape timing is still forming but we my be in Nova Scotia so I still need to look at things. Last Spring was over pressured on the Canal.

[CaryGreene]

1oz tin?

ZA, How are you doing!? We throw lighter stuff in the fall for false Albacore & Bonito, in fact 1oz. is very heavy if you can believe it. With the right rod, you can achieve surprising distances with lighter Tins. My favorite 1 oz. Albie Tin (not made from Block Tin, just a saying to categorize these as being metal objects):

[R.R. Bridge Fisher]

I would love to see some video clips to help me out....

[yogiiiboy]

Yogi

 

You would appear to be well set then. Honestly the distances you are getting with 2.75 ozs are very good. On the beach will always be less than over grass and you will understand the reasons why.

100 yards on the beach with lures is an awful long way. Many Guys think they are hitting 100 yards but its a tough call.

 You have measured your casts so you know what you can achieve and I would suggest it is way above average.

 

I don't know your rod at all although I know CTS as a company as I buy their fly rod blanks. The only other long range spinning rod I do know as I have recently built one is the Century Sling Shot two piece 11 foot 5 oz rating. It is a genuine 5 oz rating anything less than 3.5 ozs even for someone who can cast is not going to go far.It is a very stiff blank and incredibly fast. I had real concerns that the Guy I built it for would struggle to load it with the lures he wanted to fish with around 3.5 ozs. But after he got to grips with the Unitech cast he is cooking on gas and will hit his goal of 150 yards over grass at least with 4 oz lures.

It is not easy to design blanks that can cast a long way that are also nice to handle. play fish well and that can fish our lures nicely. Soon as distance comes into play it tends to cause some loss in the other attributes we like to have in a blank. I would say that up to 100 yards you can get a lovely fishing and casting rod. An example of that for me at any rate would be the Lami GSB 132 1M or a Zziplex Lite Bass.at 11 feet.

You will I believe find it difficult to move past the 150 yards with a rod designed for lure fishing. Even with Beach Rods getting past this 150 yards is a very serious challenge. If you have ever tried to spin with a serious Beach Rod I can tell you its no fun at all.

I watched a Guy a few years back in Scotts Cove Montauk using a Pendulum cast with Metals with a Uk style  Beach Rod standing on rocks. Sad really as his cast went all over the place and not very far and he was fishing at a poor time of day. His motivation was not actually fishing but casting.

The other factor that probably robs us of a few yards is the spinning reel as the line even fine braid drops below the spool lip on big casts and friction increases. Conventionals have the edge on big distances but I tried them in Montauk one year and the slow retrieve with a 6500 was just a total pain. Other problem was water ingress and sand. Hard to not over run a conventional when casting from poor stances and with braid that gets expensive fast. who wants to fish mono with Bucktails. LOL

 

Anyway you are doing great. All you need now is some fish in front of you.

 

Mike

 

 

Mike...

  You are absolutely correct when you mention stiff and fast action...........as that what the S8 line is....stiff and fast.  Surprisingly though, the S8 has a soft tip which I think is what makes this rod work appropriate lures correctly.  It is so damn light and a joy to fish with ....the blank itself weighed close to 8 oz. with 6" cut off the butt for a total length of 11'.  It definitely takes some practice to get accustomed to a rod like this.  Your comparable moderate casting styles will never work nor should they as its' purpose is totally different.  Although, because of the lower rating, 1 oz. tins are also very "manageable" with this particular stick.

 

Again, I have to reiterate, I am very surprised by this rod and could not be happier with it.  This is one I plan on keeping for a long time, technology prevailing.

[CaryGreene]

Totally get & agree with everything you are saying Yogi. I think my Century Sling Shot SS 1505's (12'6"' 1-4 oz.) must be very much like your S8. I have the Casting rod and with the Spinning rod, which is more of a Medium Action blank, I cut it back to 11'3" and made it my Pencil Stick. I also could not be happier with it. The tip is incredible. 

 

If we compare the blanks on the Century Sling Shot and the CTS S8, we certainly see they are industry leaders. For comparison, the 11' Slingshot blank is 11.2 oz. and the S8 is 10oz. When we select a Surf rod today and we are looking for the mother of all rods, we have to look at both of these companies first and foremost. There is no comparison between these types of blanks and what else is out there in terms of weight, reserve power, action and effects you can achieve by customizing - these advantages can and absolutely do impact daily fishing experiences, your casting distance and also, your blank sensitivity and ability to impart action to a Plug, Tin or Lure when you want to. 

 

When you touch and feel these blanks and compare them side by side, you can feel the difference and it's a difference you can also see by actually casting them. I am a big fan of certain all purpose surf rods right off the shelf. One of which is the 9'6" Shimano Tiralejo which, value wise, is right where I would steer any beginner for a first rod. When you want to get a little more into the sport and you're looking for that next level up, you know where to go. Century or CTS. 

 

If you've ever owned a specific Surf Rod for a specific purpose, you know what I am talking about. Will you be Jigging the Canal and do you need an ultra strong backbone and a super stiff feel that can withstand the pressures of constantly bouncing heavy weight and landing ridiculously big fish in heavy current ? Are you looking to throw Tins from the beach and do you want to lob effortlessly and keep your tin in the cut as long as possible? Do you need a Pencil rod that cuts down on the work you have to do with every cast and launches like no other? Then we need to factor in the weight we typically throw and how we want to work them. Casting them is meaningless if we can't fish them right. For this reason, i would take every single long distance casting rod, no offense to Mike here, put them in a pile and use them for, oh, I don't even know. Casting competitions for guys who have the free time to do that and aren't actually fishing. For most of us, we're out there fishing. Too much even. 

 

When we start thinking like this, we start to realize that a specific rod makes a lot of sense. Many of these Casting conversations turn into conversations that lead away form actual fishing and Mike does point this out in his advice above. Yogi really brings this message home. I kind of said it when I talked about the trade off between rod length and fish-ability. The rod we fell in love with 10 or 20 years ago has been surpassed in most ways & this, for an old vet like me, is really hard to admit and believe but it has. 

 

Will giving a guy who doesn't really golf, the latest and greatest set of clubs help him golf a lot better? (I'm not a golfer so you guys will need to think about this and draw a conclusion). 

 

I would suggest with fishing, that doing something similar will merely make fishing a little more fun to learn. Now, once you know how to use a tool poperly. Well, that is where the real difference begins to be seen.

 

Now just to appreciate casting distance, let's consider the average width of the Cape Cod Canal. The Canal is 500 feet wide. That's 160 yards. Anybody here fish the Canal? 

Edited May 12, 2016 by CaryGreene

[Roof]

I am enjoying this discussion, thanks guys.

 

Yogi is a pretty good testimonial for this particular rod.  He is knowledgeable and inspired, and you can go a long way on that fuel.  Technique does indeed trump the fancy rod, but the realization that you've stacked the deck in your favor -- with a very high standard of equipment --- puts the onus squarely on one's own shoulders to try and get the most out of the tackle. 

 

And to a surf fisher, particularly a plug caster or a tin slinger, getting the most out of the tackle is not only "distance," but consistent distance without mishap.  You may chop a hundred or more casts over a given tide, and whether that distance is one hundred or 400 feet with different tackle, it is the control and consistency that is most functional to actual fishing.  Fly anglers take note.

 

I think Yogi is hovering at the edge of "reasonable" distance with his chosen tackle and it's application.  It's always interesting to see how folk have found ways to assist the common overhead cast because to a cast and retriever this is crucial. Swinging the lure inboard or outward, developing a dynamic to get just a bit more early tension on the rod and get the arms and hands in the most favorable position for this short stroke is critical.  There are quite a number of ways that folk do this.

 

If you leave a kid alone with his buddies, in a short time they will find a way to swing the lure in the cast's early stages, it is extremely natural to come to the conclusion and I have seen this many times.  It's like teaching drift flycasting;  the student (particularly if they are young) will naturally start doing it, and when that happens they are very teachable.  So, working on a short stroke, for cast after cast, is what I think most useful.

 

---------------------------

 

I remember a thread years ago here: a regular conventional angler got a lesson from Ron Arra for some simple, short stroke, overhead casting.  He was blown away by the relaxed control and inspiration his teacher provided with his 220 Newell and common rod.  Keep it simple, work with a reasonable drop, feel when the lure tugs the tip and note how the rod can be flattened to increase the available rotation for the short stroke.

 

Terrific subject and I think Yogi has done things most rationally. It's why he is wailing them out as he is, but I wouldn't lay all or even most of the success with the given rod. He loves casting, and that always helps!  

Edited May 12, 2016 by Roof

[ZAFisher]

ZA, How are you doing!? We throw lighter stuff in the fall for false Albacore & Bonito, in fact 1oz. is very heavy if you can believe it. With the right rod, you can achieve surprising distances with lighter Tins. My favorite 1 oz. Albie Tin (not made from Block Tin, just a saying to categorize these as being metal objects):

All good.

Funnily enough working on an 11' 3/4-1 1/2oz ultra-light distance rod at the moment.

I realise that 11' is often regarded as too long for comfort by US anglers, but there is something very special about this length, give or take and inch or three when it comes to tossing lures.

The rod in question is a re-build of a locally popular surf lure-stick (in SA proper surf rods are 14' and throw 8oz + bait) we call anything smaller a spinning rod...

Its cast rating is very narrow, but that could be down to local casting styles, I find it is happy from about 1/2oz up to 2oz provided you don't try an aerialized Unitech with 2oz.

There have been a couple of very notable catches on the rod - 17kg YFT from the beach, but understand the angler in question was highly skilled. Way, way out of my league.

Did some testing yesterday and the thing that struck me is the BIG difference line dia and especially spool dia can make.

Yesterday's testing with a 17g Storm Flutterstick 10 (I like it for testing because it throws well enough, but the aerodynamic limits are easily reached and this shows up line slap) resulted in around 70yds (over grass) as the limit using a 4000 sized Shimano (50mm diam spool)

Same rod today with a 6000 (60mm dia spool) gave performance of around 85yds. That's significant in anyone's books.

[ZAFisher]

 1 oz pyramid sinker with red ribbon. i was in my casting field. that was awhile ago though. now i use a 3 oz roberts ranger in my field. hookless of course. 

Mark, Tell me about your rod, reel and line set up...

Notwithstanding the impact of a ribbon, I would want more from a 1oz sinker.

Pyramids are not the best casting sinkers, but still.

[mark d]

 if you think the distance for 1 oz was lacking the fault is probably mine. like i said not a great caster, but yeah i was surprised to get such a drop off. bear in mind though that this was when i first got the rod and had not gotten used to it yet. anyway to answer your questions

 

 rod= cts s8 11.5 1-3 oz built ncg for the reel below

 reel=spin v 6500 (have a torque 5 now)

 line= 30 lb suffix 832

 ribbon= not sure, stole it from my wife

 

  wanted to add i have enjoyed your posts on the south africa fishing. i was in capetown for a few months a couple of years ago and i loved it. one of my favorite places. tried fishing off the harbor breakwater until security chased me off, but they were nice about it

Edited May 12, 2016 by mark d

[CaryGreene]

All good.

Funnily enough working on an 11' 3/4-1 1/2oz ultra-light distance rod at the moment.

I realise that 11' is often regarded as too long for comfort by US anglers, but there is something very special about this length, give or take and inch or three when it comes to tossing lures.

The rod in question is a re-build of a locally popular surf lure-stick (in SA proper surf rods are 14' and throw 8oz + bait) we call anything smaller a spinning rod...

Its cast rating is very narrow, but that could be down to local casting styles, I find it is happy from about 1/2oz up to 2oz provided you don't try an aerialized Unitech with 2oz.

There have been a couple of very notable catches on the rod - 17kg YFT from the beach, but understand the angler in question was highly skilled. Way, way out of my league.

Did some testing yesterday and the thing that struck me is the BIG difference line dia and especially spool dia can make.

Yesterday's testing with a 17g Storm Flutterstick 10 (I like it for testing because it throws well enough, but the aerodynamic limits are easily reached and this shows up line slap) resulted in around 70yds (over grass) as the limit using a 4000 sized Shimano (50mm diam spool)

Same rod today with a 6000 (60mm dia spool) gave performance of around 85yds. That's significant in anyone's books.

Sounds like a great experiment & many of us are in the midst of our own similar experiments. In fact, mine seem to never end. I always enjoy your posts too ZA!

[ZAFisher]

 if you think the distance for 1 oz was lacking the fault is probably mine. like i said not a great caster, but yeah i was surprised to get such a drop off. bear in mind though that this was when i first got the rod and had not gotten used to it yet. anyway to answer your questions

 

 rod= cts s8 11.5 1-3 oz built ncg for the reel below

 reel=spin v 6500 (have a torque 5 now)

 line= 30 lb suffix 832

 ribbon= not sure, stole it from my wife

 

  wanted to add i have enjoyed your posts on the south africa fishing. i was in capetown for a few months a couple of years ago and i loved it. one of my favorite places. tried fishing off the harbor breakwater until security chased me off, but they were nice about it

Didn't mean to sound like you were doing wrong, just interested. have not had a go with the S8 (would like to but cost in SA is prohibitive) but it sounds very South African ie stiff and powerful.

My personal fav lure and light bait rod is 11' 1-4 but very seldom use it with anything more than a 2.5oz lure (well capable of a proper thump with 4oz so not over rated)

Longer drop and Unitech help with loading stiff rods, slow down and come in MUCH later than you think you should... right hand really just follows and does very little.

Right arm as straight as you can (feels very odd initially) and pull with left, line release takes care of itself.

Google "want to cast 160 yards" and there are 3 videos on Youtube (Carp fishing orientated) that will help.

[mark d]

 za, thks for the response. i just cast the way i have been doing it since i was a kid. time for an upgrade maybe. i will follow your youtube suggestion. thks again

[mark d]

 hey za,  just got done watching the videos you suggested. took me hours to download as i am on a ship with very slow internet. actually that is more or less how i cast but i am sure my form needs work. will play with it when i get home.

 

  thks and good luck

[gman1253]

if you are fishing open beaches for max distance, go to 14# Fireline (original) or Crystal - NOT the new 8x carrier). Much thinner line, stiffer & breaks consistently in the mid 30's#. 

Will go farther than 30# Sufix.