Distance Surfcasting Rod

[Captain Ahab]

Hurts

[R.R. Bridge Fisher]

Cary can you show a pic example of combination spinning /conventional guides.

I enjoyed the casting read!

[mark d]

  i also would be interested in that

[CaryGreene]

Sure thing guys. RR & Mark I know how your devious minds work and I have a feeling I know why you are asking this question. You guys ARE dirty aren't you! My, My! Keep in mind, these dual purpose guides are really more for heavy duty work. Let's first preface the dual purpose Spinning/Casting guides, shall we? It may help to frame where you may be thinking of taking this concept. 

 

When you think of traditional long distance casting, serious rods and heavy pay loads, you think about one of two rods usually, unless you need super heavy weight rod ratings, in which case the door opens for a few other rod makers but not because their blanks are best, it's just that the best heavy duty blanks with the best Power to Weight Ratio's are very niche items & some of the really great beach blanks only used to go up to a certain weight rating. The game however has changed and changed fast. Let's examine where we were a while back and what has happened fairly recently.

 

When you're fishing for Drum, you don't want a soft rod that will be able to sling Striper plugs, so you look for a niche product with one thing in mind and one thing only. SLINGING BAIT & LAUNCHING LEAD. 8-10-12 oz. of it too, plus the chunk. We're talking a whopping 15oz. potential pay load. This base was very not fun to cover until only recently. 

 

Here in the Northeast, this sort of fishing is not common, though there are guys out on the Cape doing some cool stuff from the beaches, we mostly want lighter payloads, especially in the Sound! I lived on and fished the beaches at the mouth of the CT River and on occasion, at night, I wanted to see what wuz. going on way the heck out there and so I would set up heavy duty style myself every now and then. But the open Atlantic is really where the heavy duty stuff is used. So here in the Northeast, we might want to throw much lighter payloads and sometimes use the rod with a spinning reel as well. In fact, we might want to throw significantly less weight, ohhh, say 3/4 oz. to 3 oz. or so...and use both Spinning and Conventional reels. Oh, you bad little boys you! LOL - Let's keep blabbering for a moment here though, it's fun to go through, for me anyways. 

 

The Saltiga Ballistic is really still one of the best off rack rod for this IMO. That's why I mentioned it earlier in the thread. "Big Red" as it is called in hard core surf communities, is a seriously, well, serious rod. It even comes with the guides we are talking about so you're all set, when you look at the SA BS33 405-G that I referenced earlier, we're looking at a very unique niche rod that comes in 3 pieces, is 13'3" long, handles 2 to 10oz. and can double up and throw a lure when needed. The action isn't stellar, but if you want to drift a Darter 250 yards out into an outgoing rip, you can do this with this rod. I own a few Ballistics and I have hardly ever used a spinning reel on them - very rarely! so why a Ballistic today, in 2016? Well, the Drum guys can fling 6 to 15oz. right off the rack and hang tough distance wise with even today's absolutely radical blanks. Mainly versatility and piece of mind is why a Ballistic is still the bomb.  The rod has very stiff characteristics and it is extremely long. It is a beach rod, through and through. Does it offer the best feel and the best power to weight ratio out there? No.

 

Recently some companies like Century and CTS have entered the game and they are building superior blanks. But the Saltiga is still very close to some of the other blank in it's era that I've felt that would nose it out. 

 

If you want to really heave long distance, you look at the guys down in Cape May, NJ and places like Cape Hatteras in North Carolina and check out the scene there and what is going on. You would have found only a handful of rods eight, nine or ten years ago. The famous Lamiglas GSB Surf Bar blank was the one serious hard core guys had custom made and they were NOT using Spinning reels obviously because hard core bait guys use Conventional reels for the max distance they afford, providing significant pay load is being launched. How big was the difference between the GSB and say, other custom blanks like the All-Stars and the Fusions? Night and day. It was super stiff, super fast and super light for what it was/is. Unfortunately, it wasn't/isn't offered in heavy enough/long enough sizes for real bad boys so this is why some of the other rods that you see talked about are even in the conversations. Today however, all this jibber-jabber is clearly in the rear view mirror where it belongs. 

 

Today's cream of the crop blanks are the Century Carbon Metal blanks, the Century Kompressor blanks, the Century Tip Tornado and CTS has entered the game with their S8 blanks. If you are doing a custom rod you can have one of these rods made and it it's done right, you'll have a really neat stick. Some of these blanks can throw both bait and plugs very well. Some of these blanks can heave 15 oz. VERY far!

 

The undisputed "off the shelf" best bet rod has long been the Diawa Saltiga Ballistic, mainly because it has a breakage warranty second to none and guys who fish big sitcks and spend big money on big game fishing are prone to snapping a rod every now and then. It is nice to be able to get a new rod and keep rolling opposed to blowing up your fancy custom rod and being SOL! (not Striper's On Lin, the other unmentionable SOL - LOL).

 

So....you were both possibly thinking...what about a Surf Rod that was light and powerful enough, that might feature an ultra low profile/thin diameter AND excell with lighter loads more appropriate for Surf Fishing that would ALSO be able to be used with either a Spinning or a Conventional reel??? WELL??

 

That's a darn-tootin good idear boyz. Surprising someone hasn't thought of this. (heh-heh, besides me o'course). Why, if we were to take the Fuji "New Concept" Alconite Guides and place MANY of them all along a blank, we could not only allow the line to track the curve of the rod optimally thereby improving the power of the blank, we could also set our hooks in superior fashion and achieve superior distance at the same time. Why, we could switch from a spinning reel to a conventional reel too. In fact, we would have the coolest rod on the planet earth right? Well. Yes. We would. 

 

 

So what's stopping us? Lack of vision? Lack of understanding Catapult Physics? Lack of imagination? Lack of real tactical fishing knowledge? Love of our Spinning Reels? Fear of Bait-Casters and Conventional Reels? Lack of understanding of technical attributes of Conventional Reels? Lack of knowledge of rod blanks and rod building? Lack of knowledge of guide dynamics and research conducted by Fuji and REC? Money, if spent, which rod would be right and it's a big investment? ...and finally. Lack of demand. Only a select few guys want this or see the use and benefit for it. Most would rather just get a Surf rod for Spinning and a Surf rod for plugs. Why?

 

Spinning reels have their advantages with lures. Conventional reels have their advantages with Squidding, bait and dead drifting out into rips. Aren't two rods better than one? There in lies the dilemma. 

 

If I were picking a blank to do this with, for the purposes of Stripers and Northeast fishing, I would easily pick the Century Sling Shot, the CTS S8 or the Century Noreaster Rock Crawler or the Century Tip Tornado blanks and fit them with the Fuji New Concept Guides and create an unheard of example of dual purpose forward thinking and optimal performing rod. Just sayin. I'd also probably put cork tape on the handle fellas and I'd cut the butt back significantly so I could barely work a Pencil comfortably. Doing this would be so that I could rip Pendulum Casts and hybrid Hatteras Casts off all day long. I would want at least 10' up from the reel too and bout 2 to 3 feed max down. 

 

I would of course prefer a tip I can feel and that I can impart action to the lure with, but I want radical power as well and extreme lightness because I'm fitting this bad boy with light reels so that my day is effortless. 

 

 

 

[R.R. Bridge Fisher]

That's interesting. ^^^^^^^^

I thing regarding distance and casting i need to get my legs and lower body involved more. Could be my biggest problem.

[Mike Oliver]

Thanks Roof.......I was just looking for basic opinions and personal experiences with surf rats.  Myself, i've been partial and successful with the CTS S8 11' (cut down from 11'6") 1-3 oz.....I've been able to reach 150+ with the Gibbs Skipper, as well as, the 2 3/8 SS Little Neck Popper.  I've well exceeded these numbers with some heavy tin/metals....mainly the 2 & 3 oz. AOK T-Hexs

 

Any guys have some numbers with their favorite long distance surf stick?

A measured and it has to be properly measured cast of 150 yards already puts you into the elite group globally. Especially with lures.

 

A dynamic thats a teed up Unitech will produce over 150 yards plus.

 

If you are wanting more then 150 yards then your best bet is a Surf rod designed to cast lead and bait or a Uk style Tourney rod or uk style Cod beach rod designed for pendulum casting and capable if the Caster is of over 200 yards plus.

Reality is that 150 yards with a 5 oz lead and a small worm bait is considered very good by Guys who can cast over grass 200 yards plus with just a 5 oz lead.

 

I have just built a Century Sling Shot 11 foot 5oz rated rod for a Guy who is going to fish the Cape Cod Canal with it.  after some coaching he was fianlt able to deliver a 3.5 oz poper type lure a measured 130 yards. His ambition is 150. Tough to do on the banks of the canal. He has had to learn how to do a dynamic as apposed to a static start Unitech cast.

 

So it depends where you want to do this long range stuff and with what type of end gear. If its bait fishing then for leads up to 6 ozs and worm baits I would look to a Zziplex or Century UK style beach caster. You may have home grown product to.

You need to learn Pendulum if you want huge distances and or OTG.

 

If its lures the Century sling Shot 5oz blank which you can use basic casts with would be a suggestion. But this rod is not easy to cast. It is  an immensely powerful rod of its type. OH thump is going nowhere with a rod like this.

 

Hope this helps

 

Mike

[mark d]

  gary & mike, thks for the informative posts

[CaryGreene]

That's interesting. ^^^^^^^^

I thing regarding distance and casting i need to get my legs and lower body involved more. Could be my biggest problem.

Hi RR, it's like most sports where Catapult Physics are involved. We are trying to impart energy into static objects and we are looking for ways to do this with our bodies & the equipment we use. We can transfer weight from our back leg to our forward leg and we can lean into a cast and bring as much of our body weight as possible to bare. Once we do this, we need to start thinking about how to use a counterweight, a fulcrum and as much leverage as we can give the cast. 

 

Think about a Catapult. If we didn't build it with an adequate weight, everything the Catapult can do would be wasted. We would lose accuracy, loft & release point and ultimately distance. So our feet are the first thing we need to think about and every cast really depends on how we're positioned and how we manage to execute simple repetition - with our surroundings constantly changing and in many times not cooperating. 

 

The other thing we need to think about is our payload and what we want to do with that payload, for practical fishing applications, after it lands. 

[CaryGreene]

A measured and it has to be properly measured cast of 150 yards already puts you into the elite group globally. Especially with lures.

 

A dynamic thats a teed up Unitech will produce over 150 yards plus.

 

If you are wanting more then 150 yards then your best bet is a Surf rod designed to cast lead and bait or a Uk style Tourney rod or uk style Cod beach rod designed for pendulum casting and capable if the Caster is of over 200 yards plus.

Reality is that 150 yards with a 5 oz lead and a small worm bait is considered very good by Guys who can cast over grass 200 yards plus with just a 5 oz lead.

 

I have just built a Century Sling Shot 11 foot 5oz rated rod for a Guy who is going to fish the Cape Cod Canal with it.  after some coaching he was fianlt able to deliver a 3.5 oz poper type lure a measured 130 yards. His ambition is 150. Tough to do on the banks of the canal. He has had to learn how to do a dynamic as apposed to a static start Unitech cast.

 

So it depends where you want to do this long range stuff and with what type of end gear. If its bait fishing then for leads up to 6 ozs and worm baits I would look to a Zziplex or Century UK style beach caster. You may have home grown product to.

You need to learn Pendulum if you want huge distances and or OTG.

 

If its lures the Century sling Shot 5oz blank which you can use basic casts with would be a suggestion. But this rod is not easy to cast. It is  an immensely powerful rod of its type. OH thump is going nowhere with a rod like this.

 

Hope this helps

 

Mike

Value added Mike, nice work! People don't realize sometimes that a longer rod will cast further, IF operated optimally. Then, at some point, we reach a length that, based on ourselves, is starting to be too much and we lose distance because we aren't operating the rod optimally. Being a pretty big guy and an experienced caster, my preferred rod length is often a little longer than many guys I fish with or meet. I've been thinking of a question in my mind I'd like have some idea of how to best answer them so they could understand what a little extra length from the reel to the rod tip can do for a cast, if you can control the rod. Today's lighter and lighter rod blanks are bring this question up more than we may realize. 

 

• If we could assume a series of rods are exactly the same (the weight rating, the flex index, the max load), how many feet of distance would each extra foot of rod give if they were optimally cast? I will go out on a limb and say the number is a small increment. Do you know of a calculation that would satisfy this question?

Edited May 11, 2016 by CaryGreene

[Mike Oliver]

Cary,

 

I just bounced in and did my post before I read any others so apologies for going over similar ground to yourself.

 

Getting as much of our body as we can into the cast and the quality of the footing are great points that you make.

 

The Unitech Cast is a good cast but by swinging the lure/lead away from the rod and bringing it back so it almost touches the blank will allow the caster to drop the rod tip almost to the floor before starting the forward part of the cast. This teeing up process is done in a very much crouched position. This allows the knees to bend and then the lower and upper legs and body turn can add very significantly to the cast. It allows the Caster to get under the rod. It also very significantly increases the rod arc. It is a bit like a weight lifter who drop to one knees when making a snatch lift. They can get right under neath the bar and use those leg muscles to aid the lift.

 

If the Original Poster would like it I can probably get permission to send to him a link of my friend casting his Sling Shot using a dynamic Unitech. Ok in this video he is using quite a long drop and he is not using a crouch body position to tee up the lure. But on the Canal he will not mostly be able to do a low body tee up because of the sloping banks and terrain. But even so he is getting measured casts of 130 yards with 3.5 oz Pencils. The amount of rod load is very scary. With a std OH thump the blank hardly bends at all. This is not a rod for new Guys. It really is a 5 oz rod more like a mini UK Beach Caster. Its impressive but only in the right hands.

 

When I get to the Cape in late May I hope to have a new camera where the video works and again if the OP would like it I can do a short video of how to set up a Low body tee up of what I call a dynamic Unitech cast.

It is not only powerful but its accurate and pretty safe. It is also easy to learn.

 

Cary I don't know of the formula to which you refer but I have a very clever Engineering friend who probably could develop one or knows of one.

 

The other constants of course is that the rod has to move around the same arc and at the same speed for every cast.

 

35 years ago when short as in 11 feet 10 inch Pendulum designed Tourney blanks ruled the casting courts Paul Kerry won with casts of around 244 yards 5oz leads. Over the years as bigger and bigger and very strong guys entered the casting comps rods moved up to 14 feet and a bit and reels got mounted very low down on the butts. Only way you can control long rods. We are talking conventional reels. Distances now are up to and over 300 yards. So longer rods can cast further and that's due to the fact that in a given time period the rod will travel around a greater arc which gives more speed to the lead compared to a shorter rod.

But fishing with rods like these is to be honest not much fun as they hardly bend. Landing a fish of even 10 lbs is darned hard work and so is just reeling in the lead and bait.

But in real life on the beach few Guys can cast much further than 150 yards with even small baits and these are the very good Casters. Bait gets smashed especially worms and fish bait flies off the hooks anyway due to the pressures involved.

 

Back 30 years ago you could buy high performance beach rods that also fished quite nicely. Rods Like the Xziplex 2500 and 1005 and NG1. Still very technical rods that needed a pendulum cast to get them to load up. OH thump forget it.

 

I have lost interest these days in the latest offerings as its pointless as we have no decent sized fish to target off UK beaches. 

There is a reason why I come across the Pond twice a year to engage with your Stripers. 

 

Any chance you might make the Cape early June time?

 

Mike

Edited May 11, 2016 by Mike Oliver

[yogiiiboy]

A measured and it has to be properly measured cast of 150 yards already puts you into the elite group globally. Especially with lures.

 

A dynamic thats a teed up Unitech will produce over 150 yards plus.

 

If you are wanting more then 150 yards then your best bet is a Surf rod designed to cast lead and bait or a Uk style Tourney rod or uk style Cod beach rod designed for pendulum casting and capable if the Caster is of over 200 yards plus.

Reality is that 150 yards with a 5 oz lead and a small worm bait is considered very good by Guys who can cast over grass 200 yards plus with just a 5 oz lead.

 

I have just built a Century Sling Shot 11 foot 5oz rated rod for a Guy who is going to fish the Cape Cod Canal with it.  after some coaching he was fianlt able to deliver a 3.5 oz poper type lure a measured 130 yards. His ambition is 150. Tough to do on the banks of the canal. He has had to learn how to do a dynamic as apposed to a static start Unitech cast.

 

So it depends where you want to do this long range stuff and with what type of end gear. If its bait fishing then for leads up to 6 ozs and worm baits I would look to a Zziplex or Century UK style beach caster. You may have home grown product to.

You need to learn Pendulum if you want huge distances and or OTG.

 

If its lures the Century sling Shot 5oz blank which you can use basic casts with would be a suggestion. But this rod is not easy to cast. It is  an immensely powerful rod of its type. OH thump is going nowhere with a rod like this.

 

Hope this helps

 

Mike

 

Mike...... I was much, much impressed with the S8 when i test casted it.  When i had mine built, i took my initial trips down the beach and "continued" to be impressed by everything the rod had to offer......the feel, lightness and most importantly, the performance.  So much so, that i was very inquisitive with potential distances this rod could actually achieve. 

 

Myself and a friend were able to use his family's farm for some tests with the S8 and some other rods he wanted to experiment with.  My S8 can throw a wide range of lures in its' rating...but obviously excels with only a selected number of lures and metals when discussing "Optimal" distance.  I can unequivocally tell you my best lure distances came with the Gibbs Skipper (2 3/4 oz.) and Heavy SS Little Neck Popper (2 3/4 oz.) falling in the 145+ yard range ( i rounded these #'s in my original post to 150 yards).  My best metal was the 3 oz. T-Hex and i drove that thing close to 160 yards (158 if i remember correctly).  Now these were my best throws using 20 lb. Fireline Crystal with an Ultegra 5500 Ci4 on a custom CTS S8 cut down to 11'.  I like to incorporate the Brighton and OTG casts for the most part when on the beach......but my best numbers came with the OTG and Hatteras methods when we were testing.  I also tend to step into my delivery with much force and get, what i feel, is the optimal load with this S8.  I can feel this stiff, fast action rod load and release like a cannon.....it's like a good golf drive - you don't even feel the club hitting the ball, it's just one clean swing with no resistance being felt on the other end.

 

I could not be happier with this rod because i had it made for a purpose and a purpose it definitely serves.  I'm not always shooting for the moon with the S8...but there are times i need to hit 120-150 yards due to our sandy beaches in south jersey where fish will cruise beyond the second bar.  With the right lures, this particular rod will hit those distances !

[mark d]

 yogii, those distances sound reasonable to me as i was getting 115 - 120 yds with 3 ounces of lead and a foot and a half or so of red ribbon tied on and i am not a good caster.

this was the only time i measured casts with this rod. i know i can throw a 3 oz crippled herring further then i was throwing the sinkers that  day but i have never measured the distance... for whatever its worth i was getting 105ish yds with 2 oz and 75 yds with 1 oz  

[ZAFisher]

1oz tin?

[Mike Oliver]

Yogi

 

You would appear to be well set then. Honestly the distances you are getting with 2.75 ozs are very good. On the beach will always be less than over grass and you will understand the reasons why.

100 yards on the beach with lures is an awful long way. Many Guys think they are hitting 100 yards but its a tough call.

 You have measured your casts so you know what you can achieve and I would suggest it is way above average.

 

I don't know your rod at all although I know CTS as a company as I buy their fly rod blanks. The only other long range spinning rod I do know as I have recently built one is the Century Sling Shot two piece 11 foot 5 oz rating. It is a genuine 5 oz rating anything less than 3.5 ozs even for someone who can cast is not going to go far.It is a very stiff blank and incredibly fast. I had real concerns that the Guy I built it for would struggle to load it with the lures he wanted to fish with around 3.5 ozs. But after he got to grips with the Unitech cast he is cooking on gas and will hit his goal of 150 yards over grass at least with 4 oz lures.

It is not easy to design blanks that can cast a long way that are also nice to handle. play fish well and that can fish our lures nicely. Soon as distance comes into play it tends to cause some loss in the other attributes we like to have in a blank. I would say that up to 100 yards you can get a lovely fishing and casting rod. An example of that for me at any rate would be the Lami GSB 132 1M or a Zziplex Lite Bass.at 11 feet.

You will I believe find it difficult to move past the 150 yards with a rod designed for lure fishing. Even with Beach Rods getting past this 150 yards is a very serious challenge. If you have ever tried to spin with a serious Beach Rod I can tell you its no fun at all.

I watched a Guy a few years back in Scotts Cove Montauk using a Pendulum cast with Metals with a Uk style  Beach Rod standing on rocks. Sad really as his cast went all over the place and not very far and he was fishing at a poor time of day. His motivation was not actually fishing but casting.

The other factor that probably robs us of a few yards is the spinning reel as the line even fine braid drops below the spool lip on big casts and friction increases. Conventionals have the edge on big distances but I tried them in Montauk one year and the slow retrieve with a 6500 was just a total pain. Other problem was water ingress and sand. Hard to not over run a conventional when casting from poor stances and with braid that gets expensive fast. who wants to fish mono with Bucktails. LOL

 

Anyway you are doing great. All you need now is some fish in front of you.

 

Mike

[mark d]

1oz tin?

 

 1 oz pyramid sinker with red ribbon. i was in my casting field. that was awhile ago though. now i use a 3 oz roberts ranger in my field. hookless of course.