Distance Surfcasting Rod

[Roof]

That's good Yogi. I saw a video of Rod n Reel thumping an overhead cast with, it may have been, a CTS, perhaps a Century, can't remember.

 

What sort of reel seat on your CTS?  Do spin casters often not use reel seats like conventional casters?  Perhaps you could extend the butt a bit?  I've used 11 foot to 11-6 all my surf casting years.  That 6 inches can make a lot of difference, or even three inches gives a different feel loading up. I like 11-6, though as I get older time will tell. I am not getting your distance and never did.  Keeping the gear at 300 feet is pretty good.

 

Yeah, sounds like you need the big distance to clear your outer bar.  You are lucky to have a good excuse to cut her loose any given tide!  Sounds like fun. 

Edited May 9, 2016 by Roof

[yogiiiboy]

That's good Yogi. I saw a video of Rod n Reel thumping an overhead cast with, it may have been, a CTS, perhaps a Century, can't remember.

 

What sort of reel seat on your CTS?  Do spin casters often not use reel seats like conventional casters?  Perhaps you could extend the butt a bit?  I've used 11 foot to 11-6 all my surf casting years.  That 6 inches can make a lot of difference, or even three inches gives a different feel loading up. I like 11-6, though as I get older time will tell. I am not getting your distance and never did.  Keeping the gear at 300 feet is pretty good.

 

Yeah, sounds like you need the big distance to clear your outer bar.  You are lucky to have a good excuse to cut her loose any given tide!  Sounds like fun. 

 

I have a standard Fuji Pipe Reel Seat with bright hoods....... I had asked the builder if those 6 inches would matter on the spinning model and he said "no"...especially, since i had it built with a 24" handle to the center of the seat.  I gotta tell you Roof, it feels comfortable - fits like a glove.  Like you said, there's nothing that takes the place of a well balanced rod.  I've also noticed then when applying the Brighton Cast, i can get a little extra dip with the rod placement being at 11'.....

 

Yes, we all know that - for the most part - fish are usually within the first trough.......but it's nice to know that if there's activity way beyond the breakers, you have something that can potentially reach it.

[Roof]

Hey Yogi,

 

Sounds like you have a perfectly balanced combo worked out.  The aesthetic pleasures of casting gear like that is wonderful.  Good for you.

 

I think I follow you:  with an aerialized Brighton cast (swinging the lead or lure toward you) the bit shorter rod allows you to get the tip a bit lower and thus your stroke a bit longer.  Is that what you meant?

 

Yes, when you need the distance, you need it.  Great fun to get a fish way out there!

Edited May 9, 2016 by Roof

[yogiiiboy]

Hey Yogi,

 

Sounds like you have a perfectly balanced combo worked out.  The aesthetic pleasures of casting gear like that is wonderful.  Good for you.

 

I think I follow you:  with an aerialized Brighton cast (swinging the lead or lure toward you) the bit shorter rod allows you to get the tip a bit lower and thus your stroke a bit longer.  Is that what you meant?

 

Yes, when you need the distance, you need it.  Great fun to get a fish way out there!

 

Yes Sir....I believe you articulated this better than I did !!

[Roof]

Yogi,

 

I remember some older days when the Stripes were in a powerful tide rip --- way out there at the end of the cast. If you got a double (when using a dropper fly) on a depleted spool, it was pretty exciting!  But we were using Squidders then and they hold lots and lots of line.  The smaller baitcasting gear was a different story and you'd better start running!

 

This must happen all the time with guys at the Canal and various big inlets on an outgoing.  That's one time I may take the teaser off, doubles can be a pain to deal with and big doubles can reek havoc on the end tackle.

 

The two fish are surging and head shaking against each other, not just you and the rod. Lots of force against a leader there.

Edited May 9, 2016 by Roof

[CaryGreene]

Good read guys! I get very nice distance with the Lamiglas Aara blanks and the Century Sling Shot blanks. I have found the more rod I can handle, the further I cast but the gains are not eye popping or incredible. They are incremental percentages that translate to 10 or 20 yards with every foot you add. But the trade off for actual fishing is not so great at some point. I can cast just about as far with my 10' Aara as I can with the 11'. They are rated the same.

 

With my 10'6" Sling Shots, I get even further casts. So, to retain "fishability" and yet, still increase casting distance, I will sometimes look to other means of adding distance. For example, use the right reel and casting distance increases. When I drop down the diameter of the Braid, I get out a litlte further even. Again, the gains are not eye popping but it's 10 yards here and 10 yards there.

 

Then, when I bump up to even longer Slingshots, like the11' or 12'6" 1505, I get out even further. It's also still a very light rod (Blank Weight only 9.92 oz.) but most guys would feel it's too much rod. I love long rods but even I'm still getting used to the absurd length and the ridiculous lightness a'nd I'm 6'3" & fairly large so you would think a really long rod wouldn't be that tough for me. However, having all the butt section area is just tough to manage. 

 

On the 11' 3" 1505 which was cut back for me for using Pencils, I lose a little distance but gain ease of fishing so it's a trade off. It fishes pencils a lot better than the 11' blank because I'm getting all that extra tip that the longer rod gives and I'm sarcrificing the non flexible part of the "lever" so who cares. To me, longer = further and too long = hard to handle. The sweet spot for daily driving depends on blank weight. With the Aara's I kind of love the 10' and with the Sling Shots I like the 10'6" or the 11'-ish range because these blanks are just so light and tip sensitive, what is not to like?

[paul708]

yeah, the sling shots are really nice, crisp action,

im gonna try 8oz with the 1448 next, should be fun

[mark d]

 hey yogii, i remember when you were researching the s8. glad it worked out for you. i have the same rod but i do not get your distances. good on ya.  it is the best casting rod i have ever used.  usually distance is not needed for me, but i will cast parallel to the shore a lot. my last trip there were nice jacks at the very end of my cast. i needed distance that day. it is nice to know its there if you need it

[CaryGreene]

Whenever anyone asks about a distance rod, we have to wonder first, how will they be using it? One guy may want to throw topwater pencils, another guy may want to throw a bank sinker and a chunk. The application determines the rod characteristics we want. My Saltiga Ballistics are (the BS33450G) is rated 2 - 10 oz. and though it's a rod with dual purpose Spinning/Casting guides, it gets used by me, for throwing bank sinkers and various bait, very far distances with Conventional equipment. They're out in the garage and when I want to fling something and grill on the beach or just hang around and fly a kite, well, that's what I'll use. You guys doubt I fly kites, I know, I know. Just wait 'till you see some of these kites. They will get your attention from miles away. LOL

 

 

 

So inevitably, a thread like this is about how we are using the rod and then we get into blank weight, rating, achieving rod load, tip action and backbone. These things all should really match up with the type of fishing you're going to do and how you will use the rod. If I want to throw some pencils, some sub surface zig-zag darters like Super Strike Stubby Bullets, some plugs, some tins...etc. then I move towards more all-purpose characteristics and potential one handed operation becomes a concern, the moment you mention a Mambo Minnow, you start truly needing this attribute. Length then becomes a bigger and bigger issue. Manageability.

The primary reason for this is due to the weight. 20 years ago, an 11' or longer surf rod was absurdly heavy. Now, I'm using up to 12'6" for pencils??? Am I typing this right? Yes. The blanks are getting crazy light and the tips are incredible. You can get them stiffer, you can get them softer. The reason this is somewhat important is that Longer=Further , all things being equal. I say somewhat because what is MUCH MORE important in achieving distance is Counterweight speed. How much energy can use to move, while anchored firmly, against the flex of the rod.

You also have other more important factors, like release angle=loft. Too much loft and you don't go far enough. Not enough loft and you throw a line drive that comes down too soon. You notice these things as you cast. When you hit a good cast, variables come together and go right.

Blank speed also comes into play. If a loaded blank springs into motion, it will deliver energy and make the cast go further than a slower blank that does not have reserve backbone power and high speed particle modulus. When we get "too long" a rod, we start to lose form and form is much more important than rod length. (no laughing). So, it really does come down to you, the person using the rod. What is the right rod to do the job & what us the right length for you to handle optimally.

Most have trouble with very long rods & at some point, even the best distance casters back off on length. That's because acceleration is the real key to distance. When form deteriorates, distance and accuracy go south also.

When we think about the physics of casting, with Surf equipment, we are talking about Catapult Physics - the use of stored energy to hurl a lure (the payload) very far.

When we think about the the three primary ways this energy is stored - the "storage mechanisms" - we are talking about tension (rod load), torsion (acceleration and power) and of course, gravity (release angle and loft).

Some Catapults are very similar to Surf Rods, some aren't. the types of catapults are the Trebuchet, the Mangonel, the Onager and the Ballista!

When you study catapults, you actually learn how use Catapult Physics to your casting advantage. That is what distance casting is all about.Good casters become, wit their rod, a catapult.

All rods are not unlike the Arms on a Catapult. Rods are Levers. Simple Levers. Catapults make these levers complex levers, with moving parts (ie: mechanical advantages). Your body is not a simple lever. You have many joints. You are a complex lever, holding a simple lever.

How can a catapult help you? Let's think about that for a moment. In short, use your entire body when you cast. Drive into the target. Pull down as you drift and launch forward. Then reach and allow for follow through. This will help you cast much further with any surf rod. Why? Let's understand further.

The Trebuchet was used to rain down heavy payloads on the heads of Norse Invaders who attacked France LOL. Can a chunk fisherman take advantage of the Trebuchet in terms of rod design? Well, the Trebuchet was actually the most accurate and the most efficient in terms of converting stored energy to the projectile. It allowed incredible consistency in terms of energy deliver, throw after throw, after throw, by use of a raised counterweight. The human body, being a complex lever, can create a Trebuchet effect and a good distance caster will use some of the Trebuchet physics in his cast. The falling (and hinged by the way) counterweight was a way to use a mechanical advantage to achieve launch speed. If the counterweight is heavier than the payload, launch speed is increased because the heavy counterweight will fall more quickly. These types of catapults also used slings also, which further increased speed and accuracy. Surf rods do this with the line from the tip to the lure. This "is" our sling. Trebuchet Catapult physics are a great way to achieve loft and when we load a rod with drift, then snap down with our arms, which are anchored by our bodies, we are unknowingly using Catapult Physics.

When you think of a Surf rod without you hanging on to it, you really think however of Mangonel Physics, which is the type of catapult that would be rolled within range of a wall. The goal was not to throw over the wall, but rather, through it. So the Mangonel catapult has the payload bucket directly attached to the end of the Catapult. When the Mangonel was released, the arm would rotate and throw the payload at a low angle toward the castle wall. Unfortunately, the launch velocity of the payload has to be equal to the velocity at the arm of the bucket end. Because surf casters themselves are complex levers, they can take a basic catapult and do some cool stuff with it, using their body's as counter weights.

When we think about the Onager catapult, we see it used by inexperienced surf casters who use only their arms, and not their entire bodies, to make a cast. Our arms only have so much elasticity, so much strength and so much ability to deliver consistent casts. When a surf caster casts with mostly their arms, they experience difficulty with distance, though they can achieve some loft.

Lastly a Ballista catapult is a cross bow pretty much, so we don't really use these principles in casting.

Edited May 10, 2016 by CaryGreene

[mark d]

  damn, thats exactly what i was gonna say

[CaryGreene]

  damn, thats exactly what i was gonna say

LOL! That's funny. When you stop to think about a cast though, think about your very best casts, when you really let one fly. What happened to allow you to fling it so well? 

1. Compact, perfectly executed stroke involving good balance, the right timing and the right release point & angle. 
2. Nice rod load 
3. Started your rod tip low and really used your body as extra leverage, potentially even getting your legs and hips into the cast. As they rotate, they deliver extra energy. 
4. Used both arms and strong grip
5. Rod operated on a fulcrum. You let the rod do most of the work. All you supplied was power and geometry. 

[mark d]

 glad you took my kidding the right way....i enjoyed your post. it makes sense. i also think of the rod as a lever. the right hand as the fulcrum and the left as the engine that drives the cast

 

 on the subject of your posts i really enjoyed your essay on tins

[CaryGreene]

 glad you took my kidding the right way....i enjoyed your post. it makes sense. i also think of the rod as a lever. the right hand as the fulcrum and the left as the engine that drives the cast

 

 on the subject of your posts i really enjoyed your essay on tins

Of course Mark, no worries with me ever. I love to tease too! We are here together as brothers and this is our passion. I actually like that you teased me! Makes being here more fun!

[Roof]

Hi Cary,

 

I am a bit of a kite enthusiast too, or at least have been most of my life. Sort of a feckless enthusiast. When my nieces wanted kite flying lessons (they got some of those "tadpole" kites that my wife and I rescued from trees at the beach) one of the first things I taught them was to tie string to their shoe lace and then recline and watch the kite, and if the day was gentle and perfect, maybe take a nap! 

 

That was a favorite maneuver when all across America, free (very crumby) kites were given to the elementary students.  This was in March, however, and that time of year on the Northern California Coast the upwelling onshore winds are just vicious...at least for novice kite fliers.  Trees, phone poles and TV antenna were hung with the grim casualties.  Any one else remember that?

 

Those Indian Fighting Kites are really cool. 

 

--------------------------------

 

Yes, a compact casting stroke is what the cast and retrieve fisher needs.  The key to that is a non-static lure making early loading possible.  Although some of these casts are named; Brighton or Unitech, Hatteras, Backcast....in truth there is a pretty wide variance of motion imparted to the lure for the rod to begin to load against early. Also to get your arms in the right place for as long a stroke as reasonable with the short stroke (as opposed to a long stroke cast like an Off the Ground, Pendulum, etc.)  Hundreds of casts during a tide require some efficiency.

 

 In a perfect world, you don't want that plug, jig, or tin hanging inertly off the rod's tip for the beginning stroke of an overhead cast.

 

One of the most helpful tips for beginners is to mark your drop so that you are operating absolutely the same every time with the same casting weight too.  Shooting head fly casting too: mark your overhang so learning the timing of the release is the same.....at least for learning.

 

Roof

Edited May 10, 2016 by Roof

[CaryGreene]

Hi Cary,

 

I am a bit of a kite enthusiast too, or at least have been most of my life. Sort of a feckless enthusiast. When my nieces wanted kite flying lessons (they got some of those "tadpole" kites that my wife and I rescued from trees at the beach) one of the first things I taught them was to tie string to their shoe lace and then recline and watch the kite, and if the day was gentle and perfect, maybe take a nap! 

 

That was a favorite maneuver when all across America, free (very crumby) kites were given to the elementary students.  This was in March, however, and that time of year on the Northern California Coast the upwelling onshore winds are just vicious...at least for novice kite fliers.  Trees, phone poles and TV antenna were hung with the grim casualties.  Any one else remember that?

 

Those Indian Fighting Kites are really cool. 

 

--------------------------------

 

Yes, a compact casting stroke is what the cast and retrieve fisher needs.  The key to that is a non-static lure making early loading possible.  Although some of these casts are named; Brighton or Unitech, Hatteras, Backcast....in truth there is a pretty wide variance of motion imparted to the lure for the rod to begin to load against early. Also to get your arms in the right place for as long a stroke as reasonable with the short stroke (as opposed to a long stroke cast like an Off the Ground, Pendulum, etc.)  Hundreds of casts during a tide require some efficiency.

 

 In a perfect world, you don't want that plug, jig, or tin hanging inertly off the rod's tip for the beginning stroke of an overhead cast.

 

One of the most helpful tips for beginners is to mark your drop so that you are operating absolutely the same every time with the same casting weight too.  Shooting head fly casting too: mark your overhang so learning the timing of the release is the same.....at least for learning.

 

Roof

 

Right on Roof! When somebody tells me to go fly a kite, I always check for wind and reply, "now?" LOL. Yes, you are getting into what makes the real bit of dfference regarding casting. Types of casts are humans applying Trebuchet Catapult Physics, even taking advantage of elasticity! We are complex levers, we are counterweights and our Lures provide ways to load a rod, when we add movement to the lure, extra downward energy provides extra rod load, which we, the catapults, unleash. The more rod load and rod speed, the more power we give our casts. Then we bump to as long a rod as we can accelerate and control comfortably for actual fishing conditions. This is where modern rod technology, which is actually technology borrowed from the aerospace industry (ie: Apache Helicopter Blade Technology) can assist us in our endeavors, to throw as far as we possibly can! LOL

 

In the history of Catapults on the battlefield, they used different Catapults for different situations. Throwing though walls, throwing over walls, launching very heavy payloads, long range, short range..etc. When we look at the Casts that Roof is talking about, they are for various situations. 

 

The Brighton cast: This is a short, compact overhand stroke. Perfect if you don't have a ton of room to maneuver, it was originally used for peer fishing where you absolutely can't use any type of pendulum effect or you wind up snagging someone else or a plank/pillar. Guys on piers are packed in tight a lot of times and space is usually at a premium. This type of cast is very rooted in Mangonel Catapult Physics. Very little movement. Very little casting arc. Just straight up power combined with doing what you can to maximize the casting arc. You have to hold the rod tip as absolutely low as you possibly can. Short leaders help here. In an actual Brighton distance casting contest, the casters will start with the lead on the ground. They then drift ever so slightly into the cast, before launching straight over the top. Very long rods are used with this technique, to gain distance. Just so there is no confusion, the Unitech cast IS a Brighton, they are one in the same. 

 

When we think of the Hatteras cast, we think about having an open beach with plenty of room. This type of cast is rooted in Trebuchet Catapult Physics, as the entire body comes into play. All catapults have bases. These bases are extremely important for a number of reasons as they provide stability for all that Potential energy to explode into Kinetic energy. For your purposes, your feet are critical in providing a solid foundation when casting. I personally put such force into my casts, that I actually fear slipping during the launch. It happens so quickly and with so much force, that one slip could cause me to flip and hit my head on a rock and what not. I'm sure many of you have thought about this while standing on a wet boulder.

 

The only way to manage this is to NOT use too much force when footing is iffy. The next key is to space your hands out so that you can create a central fulcrum during the cast. For a righty, this will mean that your left arm really straightens out during the cast and your power arm, your right one, is bent at the elbow comfortably. The rod tip begins this cast from the other side of your body, behind you of course and you swing through the cast with your hips turning and your entire body stepping into the cast, the weight transfers from your back foot to your front foot as you unleash from the constricted position you begin in. The Hatteras cast lets you take advantage of your entire body, ever single ounce of muscle and balance you have can be leveraged and you can even lean into the cast as you rotate. 

 

With the Hatteras cast, you are applying a prying motion to the lever (rod) as you step into the cast. This is where the real power of this cast comes from. Rather than using your power arm to throw, you are using your body to drive down on the lever and then throwing all that energy you've created and stored in the blank forward. The act of a righting executing this cast is as simple as pulling with the left and punching with the right, while the hips rotate. The rod does NOT come over the top, but is off at the side. By doing this, the tip travels an incredible distance quickly and acceleration is crazy fast. This type of cast is really more for throwing heavier pay loads and so it is used more for Bait fishing than it is for plugs and lures. 

 

The last type of Cast is one Surf guys who throw lures tend to like, providing they have the room to execute it. The Pendulum Cast, it not only uses Trebuchet Catapult Physics, but it uses the Potential energy of the plug. If you want to make your Super Strike Sinking Little Neck popper truly soar out to max distances, this is a very easy cast to learn. Essentially, you begin by pushing the lure out away from you (Behind you), with your rod tip up nice and high in the air, pointing out to your strong side. You then let the plug reach the top of the arc you just created. As it swings down to you and reaches it's lowest point, you reach back gently and swing through and into a cast. The lure gives all sorts of extra rod load during this cast. There are numerous videos you can google to really see what this looks like and after you watch a nice, simple one, you will suddenly see...,"Hmmmmm, Hey! I can do that!). This cast is not that difficult, so don't be scared or put off by it. You want to learn it and use it when you can. Your distance will really be impacted for the better. 

 

Obviously, certain plugs we throw really aren't conducive to much other than lobbing. A Metal Lipped Swimmer for example. Just get it out there as best you can because it may be the worst casting plug ever designed...but boy is it fun to fish and it is an awesome plug to attract a big Stirper. Very small bucktails are another hard to fling item on many rods. 

 

The real key to unleashing your distance is to get that rod loaded. 

Edited May 10, 2016 by CaryGreene