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Is Bigger Better?

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spinconn

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Sorry if this is the wrong forum cause I'm not really asking about competition casting, but fishing.  New to this stuff so I may be off but while I browse through the various threads on the different forums I get the impression that long casts require heavy terminal rigs, whether that be lures or bait rigs.

 

I am not a physicist but it seems to me if the rod, reel, line and terminal rig are all balanced, and if there were no wind, waves or currents to contend with, and if the targeted fish could be caught on lighter gear (because it will eat smaller offerings and can be played successfully), a one ounce rig should be able to go as far as a larger rig.  But I get the impression that in actual practice, long distance involves heavy payloads.

 

Taking the case of lures, assuming the aerodynamics of the lure are identical, and so are the casting skills of the fisherman, does a heavier payload go farther? 

 

I probably should have asked this in 7th grade science class but I was too busy daydreaming about fishing.

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Sorry if this is the wrong forum cause I'm not really asking about competition casting, but fishing.  New to this stuff so I may be off but while I browse through the various threads on the different forums I get the impression that long casts require heavy terminal rigs, whether that be lures or bait rigs.

 

I am not a physicist but it seems to me if the rod, reel, line and terminal rig are all balanced, and if there were no wind, waves or currents to contend with, and if the targeted fish could be caught on lighter gear (because it will eat smaller offerings and can be played successfully), a one ounce rig should be able to go as far as a larger rig.  But I get the impression that in actual practice, long distance involves heavy payloads.

 

Taking the case of lures, assuming the aerodynamics of the lure are identical, and so are the casting skills of the fisherman, does a heavier payload go farther? 

 

I probably should have asked this in 7th grade science class but I was too busy daydreaming about fishing.

this is an interesting question...........interested in the responses.............

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If you are talking about a ball of lead then yes more weight will cast farther on a longer rod rated for more weight. Lure wise a 1oz bucktail will cast the same distance on a 7 foot 1/2-1oz rod vs a 11 foot 1-4oz rod. SP minnows you won't cast any farther on a longer rod either. Once you start dipping under one ounce the lighter rods actually have an advantage in casting distance. Wind resistance is the deciding factor of how far a lure goes give or take 5 yards. The more resistance on your line and lure the faster it stops traveling mid air.

 

There are really too many variables. Reel size, line diameter, type of line, spool size, guide size etc... I could go on for hours on this topic as I have made tests, spread sheets and videos about it. However a lot of people on this forum disagree with me on this topic. They say longer and bigger will always cast farther, which I disagree with.

Edited by faithless
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I will take a stab at this.  Whether we are talking about real fishing or Field competition I would hold the variables that affect the deceleration of the projectile to be the most critical for consideration.  Namely gravity, air resistance and the drag imposed by the line trailing behind your terminal tackle.  Remove the forces of drag and air resistance and hold all other variables constant then theoretically they travel the same distance.  Since we are unable to isolate such variables and purposely are testing objects of differing masses the kinetic energy of heavier payloads is greater thereby allowing it to do more "work".  Work in this case is opposing the forces of gravity, air resistance, and drag caused by the line as mentioned by faithless's post above.

 

There are far too many variables to consider in this hypothetical scenario but I would say that yes to an extent a heavier terminal offering will travel farther (said with a 98.7% confidence level  :D ).  Less science and more experience here.  The caveat is that there is also a law of diminishing returns where too much weight can no longer reach a reasonable velocity because the force we as humans are capable of exerting is limited.

:rav:

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And, of course, we can only remove variables of wind, current and waves in theory.  In fact, they are usually a factor, as is the preference of large fish for large lures/bait.

 

Been thinking of getting a very light rig that can cast far for when most/all of the active fish are schoolies; and I admit, most of my catches are modest sized fish that are overpowered by my usual rig.  You can catch fish closer in but I like casting far, it's part of the fun.

 

I remember long ago, the Army replaced large and heavy anti-tank rounds with very small, very high velocity rounds which proved even more destructive against tanks, but they were constructed of depleted uranium, so still heavy, and the velocity was unbelievably high.  So that would be an apples to oranges comparison.

 

Guess I will search some more because now I am curious about the competitors.  Do they all use heavy weights because that is what works, is it required by tournament rules, do they have light and heavy classes for tournaments? 

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Need to find a way to get more distance on my bomber long shot 6. Using the penn battalion 9ft 3/4-3 right now, pretty descent with SP's and sometimes with a Mag Darter, but not so much with lures in the 3/4-7/8oz range like crystal minnows. 1-2oz diamond jigs on the other hand will fly. I don't want to really go longer, but might consider checking out the 9ft 1/2-2oz model for plugs. 

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Spring i was fishing with 30# braid. I have my old 550SSg (which could be the culprit) on there right now with 20#, but that reel is for my 7' ugly stik. Only have it on there because i had to send my ssv4500 in for repair. Got that back couple of weeks ago and respooled with 30#. Just have to swap them out. I would probably end up getting a new reel to go with the rod if i went that direction. But the bomber on that setup was pretty much falling on its face this morning, and with the ssv on it as well.  Wind wasn't really a factor either. 

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Need to find a way to get more distance on my bomber long shot 6. Using the penn battalion 9ft 3/4-3 right now, pretty descent with SP's and sometimes with a Mag Darter, but not so much with lures in the 3/4-7/8oz range like crystal minnows. 1-2oz diamond jigs on the other hand will fly. I don't want to really go longer, but might consider checking out the 9ft 1/2-2oz model for plugs. 

FB-

  You need to get that line down to 10 or 14 lb.............preferably the Fireline which has a higher breaking point than the lb. test identified for each..........

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Lure wise a 1oz bucktail will cast the same distance on a 7 foot 1/2-1oz rod vs a 11 foot 1-4oz rod.

Hmm. I build a lot of 10-11' 1-3oz rods and a number of 7-9' sticks that are rated 0.75-1.5oz

 

Whilst I enjoy the shorter rods for certain applications, when it comes to distance (same reel, same lure, same line with rods optimized for the set ups) the 11' sticks out thow the 7' rods by a significant margin.

 

Typical distances with 1.5oz needle nose plug (GT Ice Cream)

7': 70m

11' 110m

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The equation that applies is P = M x V. Momentum is defined as mass in motion.

 

Remember that the lure / sinker is decelerating from the moment you let go. It cannot possibly travel faster after you have released.

I am not a physicist, but my understanding is that the mass and speed of the sinker compresses and therefor stores potential energy in the flexible lever (rod) at the moment of release this potential energy is transferred to the sinker giving it a very high velocity, hence ability to travel far.

 

F=MxA is one of the variables working against how far we cast - gravity.

 

And this is for a perfectly timed cast, where you as the caster maintain the same speed / achieve highest possible sinker speed at the moment of release, slow down too early and it has already started to slow down and loose potential energy.

So the faster it is moving at the moment you release the further it should travel.

 

Heavier payloads should travel further, but if we as the caster are not strong and fast enough we cannot get the sinker moving fast enough to store the energy in the rod, if we are not able to maintain the force necessary to compress the rod it starts unloading before we release and so less distance.

 

Really good casters are both strong and fast.

 

My own physical stature and strength seems to top out with 12' rods and 4-5 ounces. Longer with heavier sinkers should get more distance but I cannot maintain the compression in the rod and cannot move it fast enough for long enough so my distance drops.

Edited by ZAFisher
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If you are talking about a ball of lead then yes more weight will cast farther on a longer rod rated for more weight. Lure wise a 1oz bucktail will cast the same distance on a 7 foot 1/2-1oz rod vs a 11 foot 1-4oz rod. SP minnows you won't cast any farther on a longer rod either. Once you start dipping under one ounce the lighter rods actually have an advantage in casting distance. Wind resistance is the deciding factor of how far a lure goes give or take 5 yards. The more resistance on your line and lure the faster it stops traveling mid air.

 

There are really too many variables. Reel size, line diameter, type of line, spool size, guide size etc... I could go on for hours on this topic as I have made tests, spread sheets and videos about it. However a lot of people on this forum disagree with me on this topic. They say longer and bigger will always cast farther, which I disagree with.

 

 

Hmm. I build a lot of 10-11' 1-3oz rods and a number of 7-9' sticks that are rated 0.75-1.5oz

 

Whilst I enjoy the shorter rods for certain applications, when it comes to distance (same reel, same lure, same line with rods optimized for the set ups) the 11' sticks out thow the 7' rods by a significant margin.

 

Typical distances with 1.5oz needle nose plug (GT Ice Cream)

7': 70m

11' 110m

I agree with ZAfisher  The 11' sticks out thows the 7' rods by a significant margin.   

Edited by ccb
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I agree with ZAfisher  The 11' sticks out thows the 7' rods by a significant margin.   

 

Really? Put on a 1/4-3/4oz bucktail that so many of us fish at shallow sandy beaches. You won't cast it any farther on the longer stick. That is my whole point not a 1.5oz+ solid lure. Right tool for the job. I would never recommend a 10-11 foot stick to someone that throws 1 oz and under. The 5-10 yard distance gain towards the 1oz mark is negligible. 

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