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fagin

Shimanos slotted line rollers...badly engineered?

37 posts in this topic

First post here and english is not my language so please have some forgiveness with my spelling :-)

 

I have been noticing an issue with my stella fi 4000, and when i look at pictures, many shimano reels seem designed the same way.

 

The line roller is "slotted" (if that is the right word?), it has a cut-out where the line is supposed to be. The problem is, on my super new, super expensive stella, is that the line often wants to stay out of that slot.

 

first reason seems to be, when i place the line in the slot and observe the reel very closely, that the line has such angle from the spool to the roller so it almost wants to be pulled out of it. This may change depending if the line is pulled from the top or the bottom of the spool, i dont know, havent looked into it so much. but it didnt look very good.

 

Biggest reason though, and the reason i think its badly engineered, is that there is no slope on the line roller that guides the line to the slot. its completely flat. and where the rolle meets the bail arm there is a 90 degree corner where the line can rest peacefully. (maybe some of you who understands what i mean can load up a picture of it with a drawn arrow or something? :-) So when i fish, the line can be caught between a static bail arm and a moving line roller :-/

 

This would be a minor problem if this was just a theoretical issue, an issue that i only notice in my sofa and playing with the reel, but NO! This happens in real-world usage.

 

It is not a rod-problem. i use mainly a shimano aspire, and have used another rod also. its a reel problem. i blame much of my line twists on this.

 

Likely this problem is most noticably when boat-trolling, at least it is for me. Because then i only release line in the water and then flips the bail to start fishing. When casting, the reel moves much more and the odds for the line to hit the slot increases. Nothing new here, -but for such expensive reel??

 

All other manufacturers seems to understand physics, and the shimano-team that made the stella swb (not the same team?) seems to understand also. in my swb:s there is sloped "walls" so the line will get to the slot. perfectly understandable. abu garcia reels all have it, daiwa have it..why WOULDNT they have it? Its so extremely simple. if i put a ball on my table it stays there, but if i lean the table it falls down. its that simple.

 

I thought shimano engineers, and most of all the stella engineers looked into EVERY detail. how can they design a one-piece-bail and then make a 90-degree corner in the end? whats the point?

 

I had a stella fe earlier for a short while but i dont remember how it was designed but from pictures it looks the same. And also some other freshwater-shimanos.

 

 

 

Can someone speak to shimano about this? i am not satisfied with my stella fi because of this.

 

whats your experience of this?

 

/fagin

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Has it caused any issues?

 

Possibly. Shimano claims their roller will reduce line twist. And if its not working, its not working.

 

And the edges of the cutout is quite sharp, so under heavy loads there is always a possibility that the line may take some damage when its lying halfway in the slot and halfway outside of it.

 

Also, when the line is stuck in the corner, it will rest against a bail arm that stands still , while at the same time roller is rolling at a high speed and rubbing it. This is small scale theoretical issues but i thought stella was the opposite to such issues.

 

But the biggest problem is that well-educated engineers havent noticed a problem that a small human like myself can see with my bare eyes, and taking lot of money for it.

 

This is after all a high-end reel, not a budget reel. I pay money to get a reel with great attention to detail. But now it seems a mid-range reel would do better.

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I know exactly what you are talking about Fagin. I had the exact same problem with my Daiwa SS 2 reels and some Emblem Z reels back in the 90's. It got me away for Daiwa for a long time. The fact that the notched hard rollers wore away the much softer roller housing and your line eventually started to get caught between the roller and the housing made it even worse.

 

I am frankly surprised that Shimano would make this engineering mistake. It won't help you now, but Shimano does listen and fixes things in their newer reels unlike Daiwa who refused to even acknowledge that they had a problem for years and lost many of their customers. I would contact their customer service and see what they can do for you. It is frustrating and I have a number of Daiwa reels that are virtually like new that I never use. The engineering and physics of some reels are a problem and sometimes when a reel design works well in one size it doesn't when you up size or down size it.

 

With the rush to come out with new cutting edge designs and manufacturing processes some new offerings simply don't work evidenced by some of the new high end rods I bought, tried, and when they performed poorly I ended up trading in for other models.

 

When you buy a high end product you expect to work as advertised. When it doesn't it is frustrating and can be expensive. Shimano generally does a very good job, but mistakes happen. Some other manufacturers are not even willing to acknowledge problems. Some go further and try to blame the client for buying the wrong product. My response it yeah my mistake was buying your product and believing your hyped specifications and that is when I vote with my feet and find something else.

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Funny, I have issues with the line roller on my Sahara, not with line twist but with the line actually getting pinched between the roller and the housing, resulting in complete break-offs. It's actually a pretty frequent occurrence and has cost me a couple of fish. I've even had it happen just lightly stripping a bit of line directly off the reel to check the drag; that's how easily it breaks when it falls into this pinch point.

 

I have no idea what the flaw is from a technical standpoint, but there's something clearly wrong with the design. I find I have to actually make a conscious effort once in a while to make sure the line is correctly feeding through the roller, but even then it still happens, particularly if the type of fishing I'm doing tends to put a bit of slack in the line. I don't have this issue with any of my other reels (barring a random freak occurance).

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I've seen a few examples of this.....for different reasons on different brands and models of reels. Even on some i own.

 

Some i have seen where in shipping the bail arm is damaged...and bent off angle....It won't look damaged however.

 

If it was serviced and the roller was put on backwards.....this may apply to older shimano reels only.

 

I've also seen the stems of some reels bent....as well as some tilted reel seats that creates an odd angle to the first guide....

 

it also may indeed be a poor design...i haven't serviced the new stella or predecessor of the fw variant so i can't really tell.

 

I'll pass it along though...

 

real quick though...have you serviced it yourself at all??

if you have a local shop that has one in stock...hold em side by side.

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1790984


 


Issue is a strong word, but i wonder why shimano puts time and effort to make a one-piece-bail, to solve a problem that almost didnt exist (seriously, how many of you have ever had a problem with the line getting stuck in an ordinary bail arm?), and then leave this corner in the other end. And its not only in this corner the wire can stay. Sometimes it can stay right beside the slot, on the flat surface.    


As i said before, when casting and retrieving it will mostly find its way to the slot. But when im trolling, and i have released line to the lure and then only flips the bail over, i will find the line in this corner most of the time.  Yes i KNOW i can move it with my finger every time, if i remember to do so, but this is a flagship reel. Those issues should not exist.


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Exact same problem that I had with the Daiwas, but Scooby also has a point about possible minor damage or assembly issues. It looks like the round hub that acts as an anchor for the bail roller assembly is not seated all way into the roller housing. In servicing my Shimano reels I have found that this happens frequently if you are not careful.It needs to be completely seated in and against the housing before you screw in the assembly or there will be a gap that causes problems just like the ones you are describing, or it could also just be how the photo looks.

 

I will be curious to see what Scooby thinks.

 

If that is the case it is an easy fix. You need to unscrew the roller assembly, reseat the anchor hub, hold it in place with one finger while you screw the roller assembly back in place with your other hand. Make sure the roller hub does not back out while you are screwing it tight. If it continues to do that then the components inside the roller assembly are not in the right positions. Sometimes you need to manipulate them a bit so they are also seated flush, and concentrically. The hub is that round silver looking piece that fits into the top of the bail arm.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay Blair View Post

Exact same problem that I had with the Daiwas, but Scooby also has a point about possible minor damage or assembly issues. It looks like the round hub that acts as an anchor for the bail roller assembly is not seated all way into the roller housing. In servicing my Shimano reels I have found that this happens frequently if you are not careful.It needs to be completely seated in and against the housing before you screw in the assembly or there will be a gap that causes problems just like the ones you are describing, or it could also just be how the photo looks.

I will be curious to see what Scooby thinks.

If that is the case it is an easy fix. You need to unscrew the roller assembly, reseat the anchor hub, hold it in place with one finger while you screw the roller assembly back in place with your other hand. Make sure the roller hub does not back out while you are screwing it tight. If it continues to do that then the components inside the roller assembly are not in the right positions. Sometimes you need to manipulate them a bit so they are also seated flush, and concentrically. The hub is that round silver looking piece that fits into the top of the bail arm.


 



Nothing "wrong" with my reel. It is brand new and every stella fi looks like this.  If you know anyone that has one, take a look at it. They are all the same. 

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Fagin, I am not saying something is wrong with the reel, only that it looks like the Roller Anchor is not seated tight. It could be that it was simply not assembled 100 %. In your picture it looks like there is a small gap at the top between and anchor and the receiver. If it is tight and aligned then that is not the problem.

 

Just trying to help. :confused:

 

You are the one who asked for help and posted the pic. or is it your intent just to trash Shimano's engineering?

 

 

I said the Shimano might have a problem, but I would be surprised because they generally do a great job. I have not had any problems with my Shimano reels other than minor stuff like the rubber pealing off of a handle knob. Getting the bail roller anchor seated is a little tricky sometimes, but in my experience it is easy to solve and I have not had any problems with their rollers that were not user error. I fish and cast so much that I wear the gears out of high end reels, but even then Shimano came up with the Paladin gear system which seemed to have solved that problem.

 

Maybe you should just send it back to the dealer for a refund or have Shimano look at it, that is unless you bought a factory second on Fleabay, then all bets are off.

 

If you are really unhappy and bought it from a good dealer they should give you your money back, give you a credit or exchange when you return it.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay Blair View Post

Fagin, I am not saying something is wrong with the reel, only that it looks like the Roller Anchor is not seated tight. It could be that it was simply not assembled 100 %. In your picture it looks like there is a small gap at the top between and anchor and the receiver. If it is tight and aligned then that is not the problem.

Just trying to help. confused.gif

You are the one who asked for help and posted the pic. or is it your intent just to trash Shimano's engineering?

I said the Shimano might have a problem, but I would be surprised because they generally do a great job. I have not had any problems with my Shimano reels other than minor stuff like the rubber pealing off of a handle knob. Getting the bail roller anchor seated is a little tricky sometimes, but in my experience it is easy to solve and I have not had any problems with their rollers that were not user error. I fish and cast so much that I wear the gears out of high end reels, but even then Shimano came up with the Paladin gear system which seemed to have solved that problem.

Maybe you should just send it back to the dealer for a refund or have Shimano look at it, that is unless you bought a factory second on Fleabay, then all bets are off.

If you are really unhappy and bought it from a good dealer they should give you your money back, give you a credit or exchange when you return it.


You said that there might be a problem with the roller anchor not being seated properly, and i answered that all new stellas look like this, so that we could exclude that. Problem?


I think you are missing the point.  My question is why on earth there is flat surfaces on both sides of the slot instead of sloped ones? 


As seen on the picture, if the surfaces had been sloped the line would slide down to the slot where it belongs.  Shimano knows this on stella swb. they also know it on other reels. Almost every other manufacturer has sloped walls.  


My wonder is: is there a benefit with this design that i just havent thought of? Or has shimano made a ugly and irritating mistake on some of their high end reels? stella fi has it, stella fe i believe has it, vanquish, biomaster..

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That is why I suggested you contact their customer service, parts, and repair folks to see what they had to say.

 

I doubt that the corporate guys would be responsive. As to the design that was determined by the the engineering and manufacturing folks and they obviously thought it would work.

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It looks like the round hub that acts as an anchor for the bail roller assembly is not seated all way into the roller housing.

 

I'm seeing what Jay noticed. It looks like there is a gap at the top of the anchor and something is not lined up correctly. I would think if either the anchor or bail arm is even slightly misaligned it could cause the problem you are experiencing. I have a stradic 2500 FJ with what look like the same style roller and have never had this issue (using 2lbs fireline).

 

1791850

1791851

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i've worked on a ton of stellas....none in the smaller sizes.....however i've worked on a ton of other 1-3000 sized shimano spinners......It really is tough to tell without it being in front of me...but it sure does look like the keyed end isn't seated correctly....you sure you didn't take it apart?? ;) It's okay...you can tell me...lol....I'd have by now..lol

 

if you're in jerz i can take a quick peek at it if you'd like.....Truth be told....really looking at it......given the angle....it doesn't look out of allignment......strange.....I spoke someone today about it......They're generally pretty straight with me.....he hasn't seen an issue this gen yet ...FWIW

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