sytheteacher Posted September 17, 2014 Report Share Posted September 17, 2014 Learned a great amount of information about rating a rod. These articles are going to make us a more knowledgeable consumer. Thanks for sharing all the great information, Sy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReelinRod Posted September 18, 2014 Report Share Posted September 18, 2014 faster rods are better for using the "Woodsman's Chop" style casts, which employs more shoulders and arms and less hips and legs, and more moderate rods are better for pendulum style casts, which utilizes your legs and hips to generate power that flows into your shoulders and arms. This has been a pretty good thread but I need to take exception to this; this thinking, IMNSHO is backwards. Slower actions work best with fast, short motions that load the rod deeply as soon as the hands begin to move. The overhead Woodsman's Chop is about the fastest and shortest stroke one can use for effective surfcasting and when properly executed, with a slow action rod rated for the payload, the rod is nearly fully compressed before the lure begins to move. The motions that work best for slow rods start so fast they have to end slower but the deep compression easily soaks up that slowing while maintaining contact with the payload and still accelerating the lure (again, assuming you are casting the proper weight). Fast action rods when cast with a snap motion also unload but with the rod not being deeply compressed, and the tip recovery being "fast", contact with the payload is lost and acceleration is lost. Fast actions perform best with longer strokes, ideally beginning with body rotation moving the rod before the arms and then hands, come in. These motions start slow and end faster; contact with the payload is maintained and because the application of energy is a constant building progression, acceleration is happening throughout the entire motion. If you are "snap-casting" a fast action rod I can guarantee it is unloading before you release, to the point of degrading if not destroying casting performance. A faster rod will cast further but it will require more force to get that distance. I see this statement a lot and it always puzzles me. While distance is related to the force applied (obviously) I don't think that faster rods necessarily cast further. With a fast rod the force is applied quickly over a short period of time, explosive is a good term. With a slower more parabolic rod the force can be applied over a longer period of time because the rod stores it, in total more force can be accumulated and released into the projectile. Or so it seems to me. I have never been to distance casting tournament but from the videos I have seen it looks like they use slow action parabolic rods. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. A faster rod will cast farther when cast correctly. As I say above, fast actions and quick motions are not optimal. Stiffer butt, fast action rods respond to a longer stroke that starts slow and ends faster (the hit). This is a catapult motion that uses the rod as a lever and with the proper drop, a trebuchet type of acceleration as the lure swings out and away, on a much wider arc. The slow / fast casting distance gap widens quickly employing a high-energy cast with a fast action rod (which does not mean more effort). OTOH, using a refined casting motion with a slow rod often has the rod collapse when casting in the mid to upper rating of the rod. Generally, employing high energy casts with slow rods require you to move up in rod weight rating; slow[er] rods used in tournament casting a bare 5oz sinker like the Zziplex Primo Syncho are excellent 8-N-Bait rods using a fishing cast . . . over time the bigger slower men owned the court due to their ability to handle very long rods. These rods are not parabolic at all. Most Guys are not able to bend them. And most guys who move from a slow rod to a faster action aren't bending the new rod. Guys who have cast nothing but slow rods like GSB's often have an initial guttural dislike for fast action rods and can't be convinced that "stiff" rods cast farther . . .but they don't realize they need to completely relearn how to cast. Guys who cast a fast action rod like they do a slow one will often say, "it doesn't 'feel' right" and they are correct . . . because they are casting it backwards, in fast, out slow . . . The rod is never getting fully loaded and since that initial snap speed can't be maintained through the casting motion, whatever load was attained, is lost as the rod unloads before the release. You can’t truly call yourself “peaceful” unless you are capable of great violence. If you are incapable of violence, you are not peaceful, you are just harmless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweetwater Posted September 18, 2014 Report Share Posted September 18, 2014 I already know Mike Oliver, and I took a little time to review ReelinRod's posting history. I clearly need to rethink what I have learned and take it back to my fishing experiences, because apparently I have been going about this backwards. My understanding that a slower blank requires a longer the arc of momentum has been contradicted by two people with greater experience than mine. I do not cast competitively and only occasionally need to really push a plug to get to fish, but I do take pride in correctly understanding how the world around me works. From that standpoint, I will play around with my casting technique the next few times I fish to see what happens. I may also take a blank and build it a couple of different ways then fish it with different drops and speeds and see what comes of that. I have become too old to drink bourbon on the rocks. I will still drink it in the parking lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnycakes Posted September 18, 2014 Report Share Posted September 18, 2014 There is much to be learned by Reelin Rod about many things. Casting in particular. A very informative post. plays well with others Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeBlue Posted September 18, 2014 Report Share Posted September 18, 2014 using a refined casting motion with a slow rod often has the rod collapse when casting in the mid to upper rating of the rod. Generally, employing high energy casts with slow rods require you to move up in rod weight rating; This points to one of the factors that rarely enters the discussion about rod action and rating, the weight of the lure. I'm sure I could have loaded my SS 1327 if I was using a 5oz plug. If the blank is collapsing then go down in lure weight. Another factor that is missing is who is the rod rated for (or who is doing the rating?) a 25 yr old guy who goes to the gym regularly or 65 yr old like me who "ain't what he used to be"? I know that rod manufacturers can't go crazy, but when looking for a rod it's like golf, you've got to know what kind of club head speed you can generate and how heavy a club you can swing. It is food for thought though, snap cast a slow rod, long and smooth with a fast rod. Does this also mean short drop with slow rod and longer drop with a fast rod? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Oliver Posted September 18, 2014 Report Share Posted September 18, 2014 Reelin Rod I am with you 100% regarding the issues many guys have when transferring from a slower rod to a very fast action rod. Being strong and incredibly athletic whilst good attributes for any Sportsman to have mean very little in casting a fast action powerful surf rod unless the Guy can well cast and knows how to load the rod with a longer casting arc. Its possible to draw parallels with fly casting where the big 300 lb Guy who is brand new believes he can muscle his way into a 90 foot cast and all he produces is a woosh and hot air. The slow in and faster out is so fundamental to cast a high performance fast action and powerful rod. The longer the rod the truer this gets. Now for me at any rate for surf spinning and casting mostly from 1;25 ozs to 3ozs I don't want or need a super fast action and very powerful rod. No use to me perched on top of a small rock trying to balance whilst the surf is doing its best to knock me off. Uk style short pendulum rods like the Zziplex 1005, and the 2500 and NG1 would be my rod of choice if I was needing up to 150 yards with a single worm bait and the only reason I would elect for these lovely casting rods is because they can produce the distance I need with smooth easily produced pendulum cast as these are not full blown Tourney rods but still way to stiff to do a good job fighting fish. Sadly these short fast pendulum rods are not made anymore as the move to longer rods took hold some years ago. Now the GSB 1321M is pretty versatile rod. It has more than enough balls to allow you to make a very effective semi pendulum fishing cast and the effort required to do that is way less than an aggressive short arc snap cast. Its like chalk and cheese. Because it is not a vicious rod it can still be cast with a semi pendulum whilst perched on a reasonable rock as it is so easy to load this rod. It will work with a slow in and a fast out technique. The difficulty I am having is trying to calibrate what is considered fast and powerful in the USA compared to rods in the UK and for which application. Surf with bait or spin only. Whats funny over here is that the focus on long range high performance rods has distorted reality in that rods are sold as fishing rods when in fact they are casting rods and its just a question of relativity between Tournament and rods sold for angling. Its very sad to see Guys who are poor casters trying to use these rods as they can't bend them to load them and if they would only let their pride take a hit they would be so much better off with less powerful rods that they can induce a bend into them and actually get a feel for the lead. Mind its funny I think that perhaps we imagine every Fisher out there should be pretty good we are no different to other sportsmen who say play racquet sports and if you took a 1000 of them there would be a huge variation in the playing standard. But with teaching almost any Fisher can be taught how to cast even a powerful surf rod pretty well and in a short period of time. But some Guys just stroll into surf fishing or arrive by the keyboard of their PC's after a troll around the internet buy a rod and you see the results of that nearly every single day ( if you fish in daylight) on the beach. When I used to build high performance rods for Surf Guys the biggest issue was small Guys and even big new Guys wanting to jump straight into the equivalent of a Formula 1 car. Every time more resulted in less way less. Technic is a big factor. A friend of mine is barely 5 feet 8 inches and 160lbs and not what you would consider remotely an Athlete and yet he can put a 5 oz lead over 220 yards with what looks like an almost effortless pendulum cast which it can be once you can truly cast this way. It gets really hard when the Tourney Guys start reaching out for 300 yards and ability plus great strength is a requirement then. For guys who don't cast well and are not interested in ever improving there are good rods made in the USA that will allow simple overhead casts and off the ground casts that will put a lead out beyond 100yards which many would consider parabolic rods. Fast action rods are a delight to cast and have a great clean feel to them but need a bit more effort to learn how to get the best out of them but its not that hard a thing to do and cast correctly need no more effort than a slower rod. Mostly it is never the rod whatever the design it is 99% the Caster. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Oliver Posted September 18, 2014 Report Share Posted September 18, 2014 This points to one of the factors that rarely enters the discussion about rod action and rating, the weight of the lure. I'm sure I could have loaded my SS 1327 if I was using a 5oz plug. If the blank is collapsing then go down in lure weight. Another factor that is missing is who is the rod rated for (or who is doing the rating?) a 25 yr old guy who goes to the gym regularly or 65 yr old like me who "ain't what he used to be"? I know that rod manufacturers can't go crazy, but when looking for a rod it's like golf, you've got to know what kind of club head speed you can generate and how heavy a club you can swing. It is food for thought though, snap cast a slow rod, long and smooth with a fast rod. Does this also mean short drop with slow rod and longer drop with a fast rod? Mike There should be no surprise that a slower rod being cast with an inappropriate style of cast will cause issues due to the load being cast same way that a fast rod cast overhead might not work too well. Take a thin walled fast taper blank and pendulum cast with it and before not too long the tip will probably delaminate and brake and it won't cast well either. Its a bit like saying my sports car won't do 90MPH off road when a slower rod is cast wrongly then it will have probs handling loads at the upper end of its rating. The rod is being stressed in a way it was never designed to be stressed. A rod should be rated according to its power and if we use it outside of its design intent then we can expect probs. Technique is way more important than age or strength when casting. Even if you were 50% of your previous young age strength you can with the right casting skill and correct rod selection make very good casts that will keep you up there with most other guys. Age and fitness does not come into the reckoning when rating a rod. You might not have quite the hand speed and strength of a 25 year old but with good technique you will be able to put your lure or lead out there no probs if you stay with rods in power rating that is sensible. For example I am able to cast 4 to 51/4 ozs ok If I have to move up to rod capable of 6oz to 8 oz I am going to hate it and struggle a s apart from technique you need the strength to cope with the weight and power of rods capable of casting these big pay loads. You are bang on with your analogy of the golf club. You can find a rod that will let you wring the maximum out of it that does not kill you. As to the drop lengths generally speaking yes but fast rods will only benefit from a longer drop if the correct cast is employed. Are you around In Montauk between the 14th Oct and the 31st Oct as I will have with me a GSB 1321M and a Zziplex Lite Bass and we could have a bit of a casting and fishing session one day/ night if you wanted to do that, You could then see whats possible for you with rods of this type. It might help you I don't know. Juts pop me a PM if you would like to do that. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Oliver Posted September 18, 2014 Report Share Posted September 18, 2014 Sweetwater You can still use a longer arc for a slower rod but you would not want to rush the cast overly much. A slow in and faster out still works but it is relevant to the rods power speed and action. You just wind them up a bit slower. Over done can see your lead or lure hitting the beach behind you as the rod overloads. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
treblemaker Posted September 18, 2014 Report Share Posted September 18, 2014 fast action rods will put you in the corner after a day or night dancing with big stripers or worse big blue fish. its alot of wear and tear on your body. i like something in the middle. i feel that being in the middle can give u both advantages sometimes lol. I have a thousand rods in my shop that i built fished and hung up. its never ending. this past spring i was fishing with a cts vapor trail 10ft 3-6 all spring from local inlet jetties and south shore beaches and montauk to block island. i really liked the rod alot. it had all the power i needed to cast heavy needles and light sp minnows. and when the big fish hit the rod plug hard the rod went into action. what i dont like about the rod and this getting off topic but i am in the zone. what i dont like about the rod is the thinness of the blank down in lower section of the rod. i fish with my hand on the fore grip. after a few hours of catching fish my hands would cramp up. so after the season is over i am going to strip it down and shape a cork foregrip and sand sand it down and throw shrink wrap over it. I still like the gsb series very much. the 120 1m is a great all around 10 surf rod for just about anything. it has a moderate action that feels comfortable and very fun when the fish slam the plug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SurffisherMike Posted September 18, 2014 Report Share Posted September 18, 2014 This has been a pretty good thread but I need to take exception to this; this thinking, IMNSHO is backwards. Slower actions work best with fast, short motions that load the rod deeply as soon as the hands begin to move. The overhead Woodsman's Chop is about the fastest and shortest stroke one can use for effective surfcasting and when properly executed, with a slow action rod rated for the payload, the rod is nearly fully compressed before the lure begins to move. The motions that work best for slow rods start so fast they have to end slower but the deep compression easily soaks up that slowing while maintaining contact with the payload and still accelerating the lure (again, assuming you are casting the proper weight). Fast action rods when cast with a snap motion also unload but with the rod not being deeply compressed, and the tip recovery being "fast", contact with the payload is lost and acceleration is lost. Fast actions perform best with longer strokes, ideally beginning with body rotation moving the rod before the arms and then hands, come in. These motions start slow and end faster; contact with the payload is maintained and because the application of energy is a constant building progression, acceleration is happening throughout the entire motion. If you are "snap-casting" a fast action rod I can guarantee it is unloading before you release, to the point of degrading if not destroying casting performance. A faster rod will cast farther when cast correctly. As I say above, fast actions and quick motions are not optimal. Stiffer butt, fast action rods respond to a longer stroke that starts slow and ends faster (the hit). This is a catapult motion that uses the rod as a lever and with the proper drop, a trebuchet type of acceleration as the lure swings out and away, on a much wider arc. The slow / fast casting distance gap widens quickly employing a high-energy cast with a fast action rod (which does not mean more effort). OTOH, using a refined casting motion with a slow rod often has the rod collapse when casting in the mid to upper rating of the rod. Generally, employing high energy casts with slow rods require you to move up in rod weight rating; slow[er] rods used in tournament casting a bare 5oz sinker like the Zziplex Primo Syncho are excellent 8-N-Bait rods using a fishing cast . . . And most guys who move from a slow rod to a faster action aren't bending the new rod. Guys who have cast nothing but slow rods like GSB's often have an initial guttural dislike for fast action rods and can't be convinced that "stiff" rods cast farther . . .but they don't realize they need to completely relearn how to cast. I like and fish more moderate rods. Spend a lot of time on a rock where you cant move your feet , the over head chop is the perfect cast for this situation and rod action. The info on the fast rod unloading before the cast is complete is spot on , i see people do this all the time. You can feel a rod load, if that isnt happening with your new fast action rod, your doing it wrong.I have cast and built fast action rods and thats the way they perform, its a different cast. Same thing with the golf swing and golf shafts, its not just the club head speed that matters on a golf shaft, its the kick point, which can determine when the shaft will unload. If people are making a change from slow to fast or fast to slow action rods they need to learn how to cast the new action before making a judgement on the performance. A more moderate rods suits my fishing and i can cast it fine. There is little doubt that used the right way fast action rods will cast further, its why distance casters use them. If thats the type of rod you want to fish with then you need to learn how to cast it, its different Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassdreamer Posted September 19, 2014 Report Share Posted September 19, 2014 I learnt how to cast a fast action rod by taking it out and practicing with it. I could see that with the kind of cast I was unwed to making with GSB's there was not much room for error and there were some really poor casts if my timing and technique were not goos--they are less forgiving. I also began to see that a longer and slower cast that accelerates near the end of the cast just seems to load the rod better and produced more distance. I had not "knowledge" or "theory" about rod construction, just my own observations and feedback from what felt right. I also just found myself casting a slower action rod like the CTS Vapor Trail differently than faster action rods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassdreamer Posted September 19, 2014 Report Share Posted September 19, 2014 I agree with Treblemaker about the Vapor Trail. I've been using the 11 ft in 1-3 and 3-6. I really like it on a rock and find them to be sensitive, light and very versatile. I was in Montauk this last weekend with it and was throwing 1 lune buck tails and 3 1/2 ounce pencil poppers and found the rod did a good job with both. It also was spot on throwing 3 ounce metal lips on the South Side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazybellringer Posted September 19, 2014 Report Share Posted September 19, 2014 Guys who have cast nothing but slow rods like GSB's often have an initial guttural dislike for fast action rods and can't be convinced that "stiff" rods cast farther . . .but they don't realize they need to completely relearn how to cast. Guys who cast a fast action rod like they do a slow one will often say, "it doesn't 'feel' right" and they are correct . . . because they are casting it backwards, in fast, out slow . . . The rod is never getting fully loaded and since that initial snap speed can't be maintained through the casting motion, whatever load was attained, is lost as the rod unloads before the release. yep yep, let me know if your going to be around this week end fishing has been fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mccandrj Posted October 22, 2014 Report Share Posted October 22, 2014 I don't know what this thread is about! I don't care for the most what rod I have, it comes second nature to me with the feel of the rod and me. Nothing else, you are the most important part of the system; system= rod, line reel and you, so stop whining and look at the system holistically, not just the rod! You can have the best rod made, but if your not in tune with it, you suck. Seems like you are helping the industry, by thinking it is the rod, in most casese it is the hurler. Compromise is a code word for sub-standard! Member of the Yellow Eyed Devils Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ez2cdave Posted October 22, 2014 Report Share Posted October 22, 2014 I don't know what this thread is about ! . . . Seems like you are helping the industry, by thinking it is the rod, in most cases, it is the hurler. And SOMETIMES it's the guy REPLYING to a thread, after he says, " I don't know what this thread is about ! ", and then offering all types of CRITICISM and "ADVICE" . . . LOL ! ! ! "Fishing is our Handshake, our Language. A Heritage that binds us together. A Passage our fathers took. A Journey that lasts a lifetime, that we have begun again with our sons and daughters." George "Gowge" Pope Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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