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TimA

OK one more time on spine please

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So Ive read Al's articles on this website, very informative. But Im still confused on the spine issue. I hold the tip in my hand and the butt on the table, I can roll the blank until I feel it jump. Now Ive always assumed that was the spine, where I felt it jump. Feels like a high spot or ridge on the blank (on the outside of the curve). Now according to Al's article, for best casting effectiveness, the guides and reel seat, for a conventional, should go on the opposite of this ridge (the inside of the curve). Am I right? This has always confused me because seems like everyone writes something different.

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..This is something that confused alot of new Rod builders..I am no expert but from what I have gathered for setting up a conventional rod for casting is to put the guides on the inside of the curve..If you have access to last months Rodmaker magazine there was an article about this that explain it in detail..Hope this helps..

 

------------------

SOL#2002

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When you flex the blank until it jumps into its own set, you put conventional guides on the outside of the flex, or more specifically, the convex side. This is for stability of the rod when flexed. It will also be the stronger side when casting (usually) because the cast is flexed opposite from the fight. The spine tends to move around depending on where the blank has the most flex applied, so it's best to mark it multiple times.

 

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I am wrong (partly).

The spine does not contribute to stability in a significant amount when using any high frame casting guides, however, according to Dick French, if using low frame guides like fuji concept, a substantial amount of force is required to create a guide torque strong enough to offset the blanks effective spine.

Therefore, yes and no to my above statement.

 

See Rodcrafters Journal Jan-Feb-Mar. 2002 for a discussion on this topic.

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Thanks for the help guys, between this board and Al's articles I should be able to build a decent rod. But Im still having a small spine problem. I guess my issue with the spine is this: No matter how I position the rod in my hands and on the table, it doesnt move when I push down on it. It doesnt spin or want to rest in one place when I push down. I think its because it isnt spinning easily though my bumpy hand. So to solve this, all I do is spin it slowly, I can feel it start to jump and when it gets over the hump, it then will come to rest and not spin easily either way. Im assuming this is where I will mark it and position my guides accordingly. But I still have one more question, I dont think there is any way to find the spine on the lower piece, only the top. So Im assuming it doesnt matter much because the lower piece is so stiff anyway. Is anyone able to find the spine on the lower piece of a two piece rod?

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I'll give you my $.02 having built one rod and bought the blank for a second. If your talking about your 1266, I had trouble finding a spin on the bottom. I have been told that if you have trouble finding it, then it won't make a lot of difference. I finally looked at the thickness of the walls on the but and lined up the irregularities with the tip, which I could spine. On the Lamiglas PSB1202L that I bought on clearance, the butt was not hard to spine. Finally, I noticed that a flat hard surface makes spining easier. The pine breakfast table (soft) didn't work as well as the kitchen counter (hard).

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Ask whoever you bought it from to spine it for you. Someone who builds a lot will have no problem finding the spine.

 

I think peoples "simplified" explanations of spines complicates the issue.

 

Clemen's book says the spine always rotates to be opposite the applied load.

 

Simple. If you understand that , you know what to do with it when you build for specific applications.

 

 

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Not all blanks will have a spine that is easy to find...but all blanks do have a spine! The method you described for finding the spine is used most often and should give you a feel for where the spine is...if in doubt take the blank to a rod builder as suggested and ask him to spine the rod for you...most will do it for either free or for a very minimum charge.

 

For as many times it has been explained, the spine on a rod blank still remains difficult to understand... A blank will bend "most easiest or more naturally " when flexed at some point around it's circumference...when this position is located the outside of the this flexure or curve is the spine as shown below...

spine1.jpg

Now, applying a force opposite of what is shown above or directly against the spine will result in the most resistant flexure of the blank as shown below

spine2.jpg

Placement of guides relative to the spine depends on several factors... One factor is; do you want to take advantage of the spine for casting or fighting a fish? Another way to look at it is; do you want the spine (the outside curve as shown above) facing the water, in the down position or facing you in the up position. This is where the first heated debate starts when talking about building a custom rod! Some will tell you that the spine (outside curve) should always be on top, thus, when fighting a fish the rod bends most easy, but under such load the tip will not "rotate"...w/ the spine on the bottom though, the rod will provide the most resistance (power) to fight a fish, but supposedly will have a tendency to rotate at the tip, causing control problems. The latter is not true IMHO! My last 5 custom built rods all have the spine facing the water or down as I want the most power out of the rod to fight a fish. I have not noticed any rotational issue at all!!! Tom Kirkman, publisher of RodMaker Magazine, also holds this view... Per my choice of spine location (down) on any custom rod I want built, the guides are either right on the spin if its spinner or opposite the spin if it's a conventional setup...

img00011.gifimg00013.gifimg00012.gif

 

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I second rumble on guide placement in relation to spine for a surf rod where casting is involved...Where casting is not a concern , like building a coventional boat rod you might consider putting guides on the spine for fish fighting power... Finding the spine on a fiberglass blank is easy..A graphite blank may have more than one spine where I go with what I think is the strongest...If the spine is off 90 degrees the rod wants to twist in your hands under a load (fish) hits the ground when you set the hook and really sucks.yea I got one of these...like somebody said take it back and they'll mark it for you if you have any doubt..Don't build it off....you'll hate it ..

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I can assure you that on any rod where the guides are on top of the rod it will want to twist under load no matter where you put the spine.

 

On any rod where the guides are on the bottom of the rod, like spin or fly or spiral wrapped casting, the rod will not try to twist no matter where you put the spine.

 

The old myth about the spine creating either a stable or unstable rod depending on where you locate it needs to be put out to pasture. It's incorrect and has led many people astray. It has nothing to do with rod stability, only guide location affects that. I bought into the nonsense about building off spine causing rod twist, but it has nothing to do with it. It's where you put the guides.

 

If you build that rod with the guides on top then you will have to work around a twist problem no matter where you locate the spine. Think about a spiral wrap for it if you're making a casting rod. If you're making a spinning rod then just put the spine where you think it casts the best. I promise you it will never twist.

 

Good wrappin'

 

Mick Taylor

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Sounds like alot of different opinions here. Here are a few simple ideas on the spine that I have come to accept after thirty years of rod building:

 

To get the maximum casting distance for spinning place both the spine and guides on the 180 degree axis. For conventional, spine at 180 degrees and guides at zero degrees.

 

For fish fighting spine at zero degrees. Guide palcement for spinning 180 degrees and for conventional spiral wrap the rod.

 

For a fly rod both the spine and guides are the same as for spinning at 180 degrees.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Al

 

 

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