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Question about your articles on rod building

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Al or anybody I have a question about finding the spine of a conventional setup. When I find the spine, I would put the guide and everything else on the top of the curve right? But on a spinning rod, the guides and others would do on the inside of the curve. This still puzzles me a little. I am trying to get everything now so when I finally find a job since I am out of school so I can get some blanks and go from there. Your help is greatly appreciated

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You are correct. For a conventional, the spine is ont the top, zero degree axis, and the guides and reelseat aligned with it.

 

For spinning, the spine remains on top, zero degree axis, and the guides and reelseat are at 180 degrees.

 

 

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I know that you said that I was correct but I have to see this visually. Talk a look and let me know if this is right. Please forgive me for the sloppy job with it. On the conventional blanks I put the guides and everything else where the arrow is point? And on the spinning blank I put the guide and everything else where the arrow is pointing? I don't know if I am slow or what lol.

 

Spine%20Pic.JPG

 

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At the very basis of it all is the fact that the spine always wants to rotate to the side opposite the applied load.

 

 

Since the only way your line can apply a load to the rod is pulling on it , the spine should be on the side opposite the direction the fish will pull.

 

To some who think casting is all important , they will put the spine to oppose the load on the rod during the forward cast. This would cause you to rotate the rod 180 degrees.

 

I think they should be spined so as not to twist while fighting the fish.

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Dear Al,

 

I was convinced on the fact that reel seat, guides and spine must be on the opposite side on spinning rod until I have red your article "Guide Placement and Wrapping".

 

You said:

"Rod building tradition has been that for conventional rods the spine, reel and guides are placed on the top of the rod on the zero degree axis and for spinning the guides and reel are placed on the bottom of the rod on the 180-degree axis opposite to the spine. This traditional placement of the guides in relation to the spine has changed in current practice where casting is a prime consideration.

 

When casting for distance to reach the fish, albeit from the surf, boat or fly casting, it is essential that the lure reach the feeding zone of the fish. Therefore, maximum casting efficiency becomes essential. "You need to reach them before you can beach them."

 

Therefore, to achieve maximum efficiency and power in your cast the spine should be on the bottom of the rod regardless if it's set up for spinning or conventional. Then:

 

- For Surf Spinning - align the spine, reel seat and guides on the bottom of the blank.

 

- For Conventional Surf - the spine is on the 180 degree axis and the reel seat and guides are on the 0 degree axis.

 

If you are building a conventional boat rod then the spine, reel seat and guides should be on the 0 degree axis on top of the rod."

 

So now I am a little confused. It seems that in this article you say the opposite thing so that in a spinning rod reel seat, guides and spine are on the same side.

 

And this sounds very strange to me.

 

Please, could you clarify your point of view?

 

Thanks

 

Angelo

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Al,

 

Just after I post my message I have found in the forum all the answers to my problem.

 

I'm sorry. Next time I'll search better before posting a question.

 

So It seems that in a spinning rood, guides, reel seat and spine should be actually on the same side (down), isn't it?

 

Angelo

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Actually, the spine has nothing to do with rod twist. All spinning and fly rods are inherently stable because the guides are on the same side that the load is being applied from. All casting rods with guides on top of the rod will be inherently unstable because the guides are opposite the side where the load is being applied from. This is absolutely true regardless of where you orient the spine.

 

There is no correct nor incorrect position in which to orient the spine. It's a myth that badly needs to die out.

 

...........

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So you don't spine your rods Tom?

 

If you place a ball bearing on the rod tip and the butt on a live center spine finder (vertical) then pull on the bearing with a string , the rod will twist until the spine is opposite the applied load. I've seen this with my own eyes. Why do you say this has nothing to do with laying out the rod? Please ellaborate on this "Myth"

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"soft side to the sea..is good for me" is what some old salt told me once. Therefore on a conventional, I'd put the guides on the "top" of that curve, as that pic shows. Thats what I always thought.

 

So I put a "perfectly spined" conventional (BT963M,Calcutta400,30lbmono) into one of those bearing type spinefinders, ran the mono throught the guides and pulled down on the mono...rod flipped 180 degrees! Didn't expect THAT! Did the same thing with the rod clamped in place and the rod twisted with the top two guides turning beyond 90 degrees from where they "should be".

 

Kind of put part of the "soft side to the sea" factoid to rest for me.

 

Why fight what a fishing rod wants to do?

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Saltheart,

 

A fish can't set your rod on a marble or bearing. He pulls on it via a line running through guides. Do it that way and the spine will always be overcome and the guides will spin to the direction of the load. Always. Period. For certain, for sure.

 

Too many guys fail to realize that flexing a rod by hand isn't at all the same thing as having a rod flexed by a fish pulling on the line running through the guides. Not at all the same.

 

Do this - rig up a rod with guides. Put the spine anywhere you want, top, bottom, side, etc. Now affix the butt of the rod into a free turning spinning apparatus. Run a line out through the guides and then load the line by pulling down on it. What happens? Simple, the rod spins until the guides on are on the bottom of the rod.

 

You can neither stop nor create rod twist by spine orientation. This is one of the worst rod building myths ever spread around and it's been hard to die. But the fact is, rod stability comes from guide location, not spine orientation.

 

All fly and spinning rods will be inherently stable and will never twist. ALL casting rods with the guides on top will attempt to twist, or actually will twist, no matter where you position the spine. I had a device at the National Rod Builders Show that demonstrated this. It mimics what actually happens when a rod is loaded by a fish. And the spine simply does not play much if any role.

 

I don't see anything wrong with using the effective spine as a reference point for rod building, but anyone that is positioning in a certain place in order to supposedly prevent rod twist, or gain casting accuracy, or any such thing, is being bad misled. There is neither a correct nor incorrect position for the spine on any rod. You set it up to get the subtle feel or performance charateristics you desire and let it go at that. You cannot use it prevent rod twist and putting it one place rather than another is not going to cause your rod to twist, explode, catch fire, or any of the other things we're often told.

 

........

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Hi Tom,

I understand what you say. Twisting does not depend on the position of spine but on the position of guides. It is ok for me.

But It seemes to me natural to think that the action of a rod does depend on the position of the spine.

Let me refer to spinning rods (my interest is in them).

A spine on the top should determine a softer action of the rod when a fish puls on it. Viceversa a spine on the botton a more rigid and nervous action. I have seen a picture showing that in the first case you have a bend radius greater. Isn't it?

So if you like the first or the second behaviour you have to behave accordingly.

Angelo

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I've noticed that virtually every blank I've seen has some slight bend to it. It seems almost impossible to me that a blank could be produced absolutely straight, at least in a realistic production environment. I'd much rather orient a spinning rod to accomodate the bend, than to worry about the spine.

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