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Shag

Heaver setup

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Hi Al,

I was wondering if you could recommend a blank for a heaver in the 10' plus range. I've got a 10' 5m set up which I thought would be the ticket for 8nbait, but it really doesn't load for me and I feel I'm still lobbing it. I know this sounds stupid but I'd really like a black blank as well. Since this is a bait rod, the weight isn't a consideration either. Thanks.

Shag

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If you want something right around 10', I can think of 3 blanks that might fit the bill. Lamiglas GSB 122 1MH, All Star GSW 1209, and if you can find it, the Harrington (Harnell) 552. The first two are graphite; the last E-glass, although you'd probably find it so similar to your 5M in almost every way that you'd have the same issues with it. No question that E-glass rods are harder to load. Rods like the 552 and 5M can probably lob cast over a pound.

 

And, all three are black, too biggrin.gif

 

[This message has been edited by Ditch Jigger (edited 02-14-2001).]

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Thanks for the replies. Another guy Dari reccomended the harnell to me. He said I could get it in Brooklyn, but I hear that place is out of business. How about the GSB136 MH snipped in the right place. Any experience there?

Saltheart isn't that breakaway rated at about 6oz, I'm thinkin a little too light for8nbait? Is there another model thats heavier I'm not aware of.

Thanks Guys, but I'm still searchin.

Shag

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I've got rods on both the 5M you have and the 1361MH you are asking about. The 5M needs a ton of weight to load. I wouldn't suggest cutting down the 1361MH, its awfully heavy to begin with. The rod is very lively though and can drive 8 and bait so the cast looks way more like a laser beam than a lob. Of course all that force must come from somewhere, it really takes some strength to get the most from these things.

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Steve,

Thanks for your input, if I can get this big heaver thing down I gonna use that 5m for brige fishing only. Strength huh, well I've been meaning to hit the gym anyway. I'd really like some input from Al before laying out the money.That blank alone is about 2 bills.

Thanks

Shag

 

[This message has been edited by Shag (edited 02-18-2001).]

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The 11 foot 9 inch Breakaway will throw 8 and bait (Unless your bait is huge). Its rated for 3 to 6 but it won't load well with 3 oZ. It really needs 4 just to start kicking in. I would have no fear throwing 8 and a chunk of bunker or Mackeral , etc.

 

If you want a real heavy heaver , the Breakaway 2piece/1 piece is rated 4 to 12. Its a very long rod though. There is also a new 2 piece / 1piece light.

 

 

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"...if I can get this big heaver thing down..."

 

Your words denote something to be said about the whole concept of Heaver rods and the fishing thereof. Through my own personal experiences, coupled with what I have observed and learned from others, I can uniformly tell you that figuring out what you need for a Heaver rod, especially if you are new to this style of fishing, will be a path of trial and potentially costly error(s)! Take my word for it...I have been fiddling w/ Heavers since the days of yore (mid 70s), and the evolution of the concept and in particular, the equipment available nowadays, is amazing, if not a little confusing. I offer the following:

 

1. IMO and I believe this is shared with most Heaver fisherman, especially those from the OBX, a true Heaver rod must be capable of throwing a minimum of the popular phraseology "8 and bait" effectively. For whatever reason, some new to the game mistakenly think this means a rod rated for 8 oz. will handle the job. A rod in this class, such as Lamiglas' XS 11 MHC which is rated to 8 oz., is not even close to what a true Heaver really is... For those who are little ahead of the curve, there is consideration of not only the weight of all of your terminal tackle (includes bait), but the conditions fished... For starters you will be throwing an 8-oz. sinker or more. The reason for this heavy sinker is twofold... If you are in rough water with tremendous current; i.e., Cape Point in Hatteras, NC and are fishing from a stationary position, you will need a "anchor" of a sinker to hold bottom. Otherwise in no time your offering will be swept 90 degrees down current, ultimately ending up in the wash and on the beach. Sometimes you will need 10 or even 12 oz. to hold bottom. The pull of the current is enhanced when you are using big baits, such as a bunker head, which can act as a sail and drag your entire rig down the beach. Another reason for the heavy sinker is that you will need this to wing the bigger baits that are wind resistant - the bunker head. So 8 oz is the start...add to this the weight of the bait. A bunker head can weigh 4 oz. Then there is the weight of your hook. I use a 13/0 hook many times for large Stripers and Drum. The hook weighs roughly between 1 and or 2 oz. I also use a 2/0 McMahon snap as a fish finder, which weighs .75 oz. In total we are talking the potential of the terminal rig to weigh a whooping 14 or 15 oz. That's close to a pound! Of course if you use smaller baits and terminal tackle; i.e., bunker chunks, smaller hooks and sinker, then you are throwing less, perhaps only 10 or 11 oz. Still, the point is you need a rod that can really handle this type of weight, where the fisherman can really lay into the cast, load the rod to the max, and avoid lobbing the weight out into the surf.

 

2. IMO, throwing big weight(s) effectively, becomes even important when one talks

about casting distance. Distance could be a factor in your fishing situation and when you are throwing the weights we are talking about here, the last thing you want is a short rod. A short rod amplifies the problem of not being able to cast far with the heavier sinkers and bait. A short rod simply does not generate the tip velocity that you need to sling 14 oz. out there far. This was a common mistake 10 or more years ago on the OBX. Some fishers opted for the shorter rods because they thought they could not handle the bigger sticks. To a certain extend this was true. Back in the 70s and 80s the Heaver was a glass rod and stiff as a "cue stick"...it was also sinfully heavy. The result was that cast(s) were comparatively shorter by any standard. In my view a short rod for a Heaver to be used in the surf is 10'...11' is borderline with 12' to 13.5' optimal. Granted, for some, who are very short in height or lack adequate physical strength, perhaps a shorter rod of 10' would work better. Also, a 10' Heaver would be more ideal if you are fishing on a pier, say, in the OBX.

 

3. OK...what finished rod or blank is necessary for a Heaver. IMO, the weight of the

rod and its ability to throw are crucial. You want as light a rod as possible...a graphite rod! Not because you will continually hold it (I spike my Heavers), but because lightness in rod weight equates to greater tip velocity during the cast. Remember, you are already throwing a lot of terminal weight, so the rod bust be light. Accordingly, a glass rod is not the way to go. The Harnell is not an ideal choice fore the Heaver, given the other finished rods and/or blanks available today. If your finances are such that you want your first Haever not to be a costly mistake then look at Shakespeare's factory made 12' Heaver. I forget the model number, but its a conventional rod (all Heavers are conventional regardless of what you are told) and is rated to 24 oz. The 24 oz. is a joke as are all of Shakespeare's rod ratings. But this rod will definitely throw up to 14 oz... The rod is heavy because it's made of a composite (glass and graphite) and is not known as a great distance caster. However, the best part is this rod only cost $75...talk about value...

 

If money is not of a concern, then I recommend a custom Heaver, G.Loomis' factory Heaver (model 1448C) or Breakaway's factory Heaver (BGSW1509). If you go w/ a custom rod, look at Lamiglas blanks GSB 144 or GSB 150. Also, Hatteras Outfitters makes a nice Heaver on an All-Star blank, similar to the Breakaway 1509, which also uses an All-Star blank. They also are introducing a Heaver built on a new blank made by Outcast. This weekend I had the opportunity to hold an unfinished Outcast Heaver. IMO, it's the lightest blank yet for a Heaver...its designed to throw 8 and bait. Finally, Ron Sutton recently has developed a Heaver on a Zipplex blank called the Straight 8. All these rods I have mentioned here are in the 12'+ range.

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[This message has been edited by Rumble Fish aka Poppy (edited 02-19-2001).]

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Poppy,

I always believed experience is the best teacher. It sounds like you are quite the experienced heaver guy (as a matter of fact another title under your name should be "High Exalted Grand Poopah Heaver Guy".biggrin.gif Honestly I never got so much info in any post on this subject that makes perfect sense. My experience with this type of fishing is very limited. I rarely fish bait, but there are a few places that I know would produce some large if I could just get a big bait out to edge of the bar. I went with the locals on their advice a few years ago, thats how I ended up with a 5m. "They aren't hitting the bar either". A visit to Buxton/Frisco last Easter got me talking to guys in Frank and Frans, another big shop on the left going south in Buxton whose name escapes me, and Frisco Outfitters. Frank and Frans gave me their philosophy on lots of guides,"less line slap in the cast". Frisco tried talking me into a 10' one piece Breakaway off the shelf rod. I think I came down there with alot of prejudices against a 2pc so he was steering me to the 10 footer."Give the customer what he wants" The shop in Buxton was directing me to these 2/1 piece rods that were somewhere around 12'. They were a lami blank, but he also had others, I think were breakaways. What really intrigued me was that a guy in the shop who was about 5'6" and 140lbs was telling me he swings that rod with no problem. Now I'm 6'1" aroun 230 and that stick scared me. I got to tell ya I was doubting every word he said and really thought they were giving this Yankee the bamboozle. So anyway I left the OBX with no new stick, and more confused than ever.

 

So here goes, Poppy if you were buying a new heaver, what would you get? where would ya get it? Thanks for the advice, if ya ever need any help with Montauk/wetsuiting/etc, let me know; that's where most of my experience has been.

Thanks,

Shag

 

[This message has been edited by Shag (edited 02-20-2001).]

 

[This message has been edited by Shag (edited 02-20-2001).]

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Shag, the info poppy posted was right on the money.

 

I still feel the Breakaway 2/1 1509 is the best heaver around if you need to throw bait and a heavy weight over the bar. The 1418 is way too wimpy for 8 and anything over a very small piece of bait, and if you are ever going to need more than 8 (and you will) then the 1418 is too light. Another blank is the 1508 Breakaway 2/1 lite, this blank is a tad softer than the 1509 and weighs less to hold. I would say 10 and bait is the limit for this blank. Another option is the Outcast 1625 blank. This blank is as light as the lamiglas 1502 and IMO has more backbone. It comes at 13' 6" and can be cut alot from the butt and a little off the tip (it breaks down at the halfway point). The last one I built for myself I took 4" off the tip and 8" off the butt for a total length of 12'6". I think this is going to be my new favorite heaver due to its light weight. I do have a couple of these blanks on hand as well as the breakaway 1509 and 1508 if you are interested.

 

Good luck with what ever you decide.

 

Gary

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Shag...I can relate to your bewilderment about purchasing a Heaver rod, but I also commend you for making the inquiry, especially since this is new to you...

 

First, let me say that I am not an expert on Heaver's, but I have been around the block a few times and I now know where some of the potholes are...

 

I am at the moment dwelling on getting another Heaver rod to add to my existing arsenal of Heavers. I reckon that I have owned a dozen of these rods over the years and just in the last 4 years acquired 3 new ones... It seems that every few years a manufacturer comes out with a new/newer big rod that is better than it's predecessor(s) and is hailed as the end all... Generally speaking, there have been good gains in the performance and quality of the Heaver's, especially with the advent of graphite as a blank material... The Heaver got its birth many years ago and was initially called the "Hatteras Heaver"...it was designed for tossing big bait ands sinkers into some of the Roughest waters on the east coast - the OBX surf. The Hatteras Heaver was all glass, very heavy comparatively speaking and stiffer than stiff! Another reason for such big, stout rods was that the critters swimming in the OBX surf could be rather large and powerful. The main target of course was the Red Drum. A most powerful and big fish that inhabited the surf waters. Up to the mid 70s it was not that uncommon for many to land 50# + off of the piers and in surf of the OBX.

 

As I indicated in the previous post, IMO a minimum of 11' rod is what you want in a Heaver. Really, a 12' to 13' stick is optimal and again this is MHO... I am 5'-11' of regular build and throwing a Heaver under 11' is not effective with big sinkers and baits for me.

 

If money isn't a factor, I would definitely buy a custom Heaver. Right now, my first choice for a Heaver blank manufacturer would be either Lamiglas and/or All Star... A second choice (w/ some reservation) would be either of the 2 new entries in the Heaver blank market - Outcast and/or Zziplex. A third choice would be to forego the custom stick route and purchase a factory Heaver...there are only 2 factory Heavers I would consider, G.Loomis' SUR1448C or Breakaway's LDFC TP 150-2H.

 

For a custom Heaver, I like Lamiglas' new GSB 150 2MH blank... This blank is 12'-6" (2 piece - equal lengths) and is rated for 6 - 16 oz. Depending on what the builder tells me, I may want to trim 3" to 5" off the tip...remember when you do this the action of the rod is altered...in my case the trimming may give me "more rod" at the tip for heavier casting weights and power casting. Also keep in mind that any cut on the blank may void the factory warranty.

 

Anyway, on a Heaver of 12'+ I would go with 7 guides (including tip guide), sized roughly from 16 mm to 30 mm. I like Fuji's SiC guides in a titanium frame (if available). I just had a custom Heaver built last year on Lamiglas' GSB 144 blank by Hatteras Outfitters...the 3 largest guides including the stripper guide have a high profile frame that was designed to gather line coming off the reel in a more aligned fashion w/ less friction. I am not yet totally sold on this high profile guide thing.... Anyway, the guides would be under-wrapped and doubled wrapped with Gudebrod nylon thread (size D?). Of course all thread work would be finished w/ FlexCoat (regular formula)...

 

 

Reel seat - Fuji DPS (deluxe model w/ metal hoods). Handle - full length (fore and aft of seat) w/ standard 1/16" thick cork tape. Butt cap, flared mushroom, rubber (not vinyl). Reel seat position on these big rods is important...first and foremost start with what you are comfortable with...most Heaver reel seats on a 12' or 13' rod are in the range of 27" to 31' from butt to center of the seat. What I have found out was that a better position for me is to reposition the seat from 1" to 2" closer to the butt after I comfortably position my hands on the blank's handle section (if I have the chance). This is better for casting as a shorter grip on the handle section allows me to punch my cast by pulling more forcibly w/ my left arm and pushing w/ my right arm.

 

My second choice for a custom Heaver would be a rod built on an All Star blank as marketed by Breakaway (blank model no. BGSW1509) and made by Hatteras Outfitters (model no. GSW1509/2)...this is the popular 2 pc/1 pc rod! This is a little confusing, but the important thing here is that the blank is the 1509 as designed by Breakaway and made by All Star... What Hatteras Outfitters has done is take Breakaway's blank and builds a somewhat custom rod to your measurement spec's; i.e., reel seat position, rod length, etc. You can add other customizations and get the rod to the way you really want it for additional $$ I suppose...but to what extent you can get this done I am not sure. Now the 1509 blank is stout if not the stiffest that a Heaver can be built on... This blank/rod will throw, but it is not the lightest rod out there...a little heavier than a comparable Lamiglas. Also in my hands the 1509 always feels a little tip heavy. These are minor knocks...I still like the rod!

 

What really intrigues me are the new entries on the Heaver market...the Zziplex Straight 8 and the Outcast (Launcher is the blank model name I believe). Although I have not thrown these rods I did hold them as nearly finished rods recently. They are unbelievably light in weight, especially the Outcast. The latter is being touted by Hatteras Outfitters as "out-casting" any other Heaver on the market...only time will tell!

 

All the custom rods I am talking about here will cost you $350 to $450...I think the Zziplex Straight 8 will cost you $525. As to who I would select to build my custom Heaver...well lets say I would look real hard at those who build Heavers on a routine basis. This is not to say that other rod builders can not do it for you! But I would go to Hatteras Outfitters who has Wayne Foulkes building their custom rods. Wayne is consider by some to be one of the preeminent rod builders on the east coast and a Heaver specialist...he has been at it for 40 years! Others...I like Dillion's Corner (Ollie Jarvis) and/or Red Drum Tackle (Bob Eakes), both in Buxton, NC. Also, Gary (8NBAIT) can make you a nice Heaver.

 

CliffB...the Shakespeare Heaver is model BWC1102 and I rarely see it in the shops on the Delmarva or at the OBX. Up your way (NY), I would not know... Good value though for a Heaver, but again heavy and not a long caster...not anywhere near the class of rods I mentioned above. The rod is in Offshore Anglers 2001 catalog.

 

Wharf Rat...no one I know of can toss 14 oz under real conditions more than 100 yards, maybe 125 yards at best and these distances are the exception. I can throw 10-oz (sinker only) 150 yards (accurately measured) at the field near my home and only with a stiff wind at my back. At the beach, I generally use a fish finder rig w/ a large hook and fish head w/ an 8-oz. sinker. The weight of the sinker depends on conditions and the size line you employ. I use 17# to 25# mono on my Heavers...the 25# I only use when I think there are real big critters around, otherwise I use 20#. I doubt in the surf if I am casting over 100 yards... Others can nail it further perhaps...

 

Hi Gary...yes, that Outcast looks real interesting...so light! I want to know, can that rod truly heave 12+ oz.? Bring it with you to Assateague in May PLEASE smile.gif...

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