Sage TCX 7126 best lines for 2 hand overhead casting...

[crunch]

I have not cast the "Death Star" but have read several times it is more powerful than 7. When I fish SW I Spey cast Scandi shooting heads the most and when I OH cast them I don't feel any of my rods gets overloaded. With first line you don't know what you like but you can't go wrong if you select the average line weight Rio recommends. AFS 7/8 is 37ft and 460gr and AFS 8/9 is 38ft and 520gr. There weights "in between" are 34ft/480gr and 34ft/510gr Steelhead Scandi heads and slightly shorter than AFS but not too short.

 

I like Scandi tapers because they are very easy to lift and line loop behaves smoothly because front taper is long. Also when line is shot the line loop stays narrow. There are three cons. Thin and long front does not turn biggest flies and when line is shot to strong head wind the running line needs to be stopped when line has some speed to aid line straightening. If you use line basket you should use coated shooting line to build drag and mass to rod leg which helps line loop unrolling straight. When you need more distance shoot line to back cast so you can use wider casting stroke without line loop getting too wide.

 

Esa

[Mike Oliver]

Tim

 

I can't understand why David at Tight Lines is suggesting a Skagit line as a first choice for this rod to be cast OH. A skgait line is not designed as it's primary funcction to be cast OH it was designed to be cast Spey style using a water borne anchor. I have stated this a few times but it gets lost in the noise. The only reason we use a skagit line on a rod for OH casting on the beach is because as of now once you get to 510grains we run out of proper integrated lines like the RIO OB in 37.5 feet. For your rod I am pretty confident that there is an OB, RIO line that will match up well.

 

If this Sage TCX is rated correctly then if it was my rod I would be starting off with the OB 9wt which is what RIO have suggested on their Web site. Now we have to presume here that someone in Rio actually cast this rod with this line and also with other lines to get to this recommendation.

 

As to head length with an integrated line like an OB for a 12 fot 6 inch rod then the 37.5 foot head is way ahead of the 30 foot head. The OBS lines are not designed for distancee or long flight times. They are designed for casting wind resistant flies on single hand rods and for deep wading Fishers. Short heads have a tendancy to dump. In a head wind you can't easily shoot line so a longer head will give you better performance distance wise to.

 

Tim can you go back to the fly shop where you purchased your rod and get them to help you set up the rod by letting you cast a few lines, assuming you purchased at a shop and not on line.

 

When test casting always make casts into the wind as well as that will give you very much needed info. Casting with the wind or with the wind across you you can get away with overlining quite a bit.

 

If you can't do that we are back to the debate. Do you have any lines you can try before laying out cash? Are you a member of any club where you can attend a club night and borrow lines on the night and get sorted?

 

Tim your reasoning on Skagit at 425 grains plus another 90 to 100 g for the needed tip is correct verses an OB at 425 grains you do not need to clarify you have it figured right.

 

What I still can't figure is why even a 425 grain line for OH casting is right for a rod rated a 7wt spey. Others are saying this rod is ok with 500 grains which is amazing to me. Whilst there is a generally accepted wide grain window for TH rods I wonder whats its based on. Passed on info that is never challenged? How many bother to take their TH rods and cast a range of lines on it to see whats really what?

 

Tim let me ask you this as it is important in getting things right. How good is your TH casting right now? I ask because it needs to be at least reasonable for you to evaluate any line you put on it. If its not that good I honestly think your next move is to consider Pro casting lessons for you might get the best line match but if you are not reasonable the sea and wind will find you out quickly.

 

Just to re-cap Tim for your rod you honestly don't want a Skagit line unless you want to perform water borne anhored spey casts and Out Front you will be OH casting and you don't really want a OBS line.

 

I am trying very hard to place that tennis ball in the sweet spot of your racket. Don't get into a spin.

 

Mike

[rogerfowler]

Mike,

 

This is a perfect example of how you are totally confusing a new guy. 

 

Jersey Fly Guy has this rod and knows exactly what it will do.  The guys at Tight Lines are professionals in lining rods.  That's what they do for a living.  If they sell someone the wrong line, they lose a customer.  A Skagit Extreme or a Skagit Flight will cast perfectly OH with a tapered MOW tip. 

 

You make the process much harder that it has to be for a newcomer.

 

There's no doubt you know a lot about your rods.  Please buy or borrow a 560 gr SA Skagit extreme intermediate head and a 10 ft int tip and try it on your rod and come back here and tell us it doesn't work well. 

[fkrow]

Thank you Roger Fowler, a breath of fresh air on the subject of THOH casting.

 

I am back with reinforcement advice for the newer fly fishers experimenting with THOH.

 

I have owned the Sage 7126 TCX since its introduction and have three close friends who really like that rod.

 

Chris Anderson has been an acquaintance for over 5 years, he was Sales Manager for Sage and has been promoted to Far Bank corporate (owner of Sage, Rio and Redington). Chris has a tremendous amount of experience with Sage/Rio products.

 

Simon Gawesworth has been a friend for 15 years, he is one of the most experienced people in the industry for TH rods, casting instruction and line selelction. His current favorite rod is the Sage 7126 TCX.

 

Andrew Moy owner of Tightlines in NJ is also a friend, he is located near the NJ salt and has extensive experience in THOH casting.

 

Rich Murphy who wrote "Fly Fishing for Striped Bass" lives on the Cape and fishes year round. Rich has revised the recommendations of longer rods in his book, take a look in his rod tube and you will find the Sage 7126 TCX. Rich attends our New England Spey Clave and shows his Cape fly patterns and shooting line set ups to visitors.

 

Listen to the people with experience actually casting and fishing the Sage 7126 TCX, not theory from people who have never cast the rod.

 

Is it a Spey 7wt or 8wt,,, we do not care,,, it is one of most the outstanding rods designed by Sage and will become a "Classic" for TH rods.

 

The concept of "Skagit lines are unsuitable for THOH casting because they were designed for FW Spey casting" is pure nonsense. The line does not care if it is cast over head or Spey style. Do not forget the original Skagit of 10-13 years ago was a "garden hose" taper and made from cut up level lines. Today the Sakgit lines have front and back tapers and do turn over very nicely when THOH cast. May use a loop to loop front tapered section or just loop on some T-11, T-14 etc. We have new Intermediate Skagit heads and tips for the salt.

 

The Pandion is a TFO TH rod product for THOH in the Salt, developed by Nick Curcione (originally from CT) and rocks with his Skagit THOH line set-up, Rio Skagit short (20ft) with 15'-17' of T-14 or T-17 on the front end. These rods will excel at THOH and Skagit water borne cast very nicely. We were with Nick at Somerset in Jan '12 for two days and had many people on the lawn who had never cast THOH, the response was very favorable.

 

All rods and especially TH rods have a "Grain Window" or range of lines that the rod will comfortably cast. Lighter line give higher line speed but reduce the effective payload (fly weight) that can be cast efficiently. There is no "correct or incorrect" line weight for the modern TH rods,,, whatever you personally feel comfortable is the right line for your casting style.

 

Shorter THOH rods,,, I now own the original CND Atlantis and two Loomis Cross Current rods, specifically designed around the RIO Outbound line series, they are excellent in the salt. The new Beulah and other 8/9/10 wt 11'-11'9" rods are also very functional with the correct lines.

I also have the TFO 12x12 and recently was given a new comp. rod by Thomas & Thomas, their discontinued 12x12 THOH rod which I consider the nicest casting of the lot. In addition, we were told by T&T that they have the mandrels available to make up a short run of the T&T 12x12 if demand is shown by the community.

 

Regards,

FK

[jack keller]

I have this rod and I mostly overhead cast with it. It does quite well with a regular 10 weight tropical fly line but an 11 weight is better. I've never tried anything heavier but I imagine that it could handle a 12 weight fly line if necessary. The grain size would be something between 280 and 400 according to my line scale. I think that Sage somewhat underrated this rod but in any case it casts quite well.

[rigdEEL]

FK,

You seem to always have a personal vendetta against Mike O. We have someone here who is new to TH flycasting or at least this particular Sage rod and all he sees is everyone contradicting one another. I know you know these famous flyfishermen so why don't you contact them and get their recommendations for lines for that rod and report back. If I'm not mistaken doesn't Simon (and Rio)recommend a 10wt Outbound which is 425 grains not 550+ as some people suggest? I know you own that rod but I don't see what YOU would use for a line. It seems to me we are seeing more and more of a difference in opinion at to what rods "are designed for" and what they "can handle". Sorry to tth for my rant on his thread.

 

Doug

[Mike Oliver]

Mike,

 

This is a perfect example of how you are totally confusing a new guy. 

 

Jersey Fly Guy has this rod and knows exactly what it will do.  The guys at Tight Lines are professionals in lining rods.  That's what they do for a living.  If they sell someone the wrong line, they lose a customer.  A Skagit Extreme or a Skagit Flight will cast perfectly OH with a tapered MOW tip. 

 

You make the process much harder that it has to be for a newcomer.

 

There's no doubt you know a lot about your rods.  Please buy or borrow a 560 gr SA Skagit extreme intermediate head and a 10 ft int tip and try it on your rod and come back here and tell us it doesn't work well. 

 

 

Roger,

 

 

I beg to differ . I have been open transparent and fair. So RIO is wrong and I am wrong. Please a skagit line is designed for water borne spey casting as its primary function. Why use such a line when a more suitable line is available like a RIO OB. RIO interestingly does not recommend a skagit line for this rod. RIO is recommending an OB 9wt.

 

Skagits are the lines of choice for us OH Guys when we need more than 510 grains where OB's stop. I have a set of skagit lines I have them from 500 to 850 and yes I have cast them all and they are ok but I prefer an integrated WF line where possible. Would you or I put a skagit line or suggest one to a SH rod user no so why would we as first choice to a TH Fisher who primarily wishes to cast OH. This is pretty simple stuff.

 

I am very sensitive to the experience of JerseyFly Guy. But some thing is not not quite right here. A 7wt rated rod typically is not suitable for casting a line of over 500grains OH.

 

So did Sage vastly underate this TCX 7wt rod?

 

I have suggested a way for Tim to find the right line . Of course he could just go out and buy a 550 grain line and work backwards. If funds are not an isue he can go and try various lines.

 

Like the Guys at Tight Lines I have a reputation to look after.

 

I can't cast every rod but when faced with a rod spec I gave a considered recommendation a sensible place to start.

 

Mike

[Mike Oliver]

Thank you Roger Fowler, a breath of fresh air on the subject of THOH casting.

 

I am back with reinforcement advice for the newer fly fishers experimenting with THOH.

 

I have owned the Sage 7126 TCX since its introduction and have three close friends who really like that rod.

 

Chris Anderson has been an acquaintance for over 5 years, he was Sales Manager for Sage and has been promoted to Far Bank corporate (owner of Sage, Rio and Redington). Chris has a tremendous amount of experience with Sage/Rio products.

 

Simon Gawesworth has been a friend for 15 years, he is one of the most experienced people in the industry for TH rods, casting instruction and line selelction. His current favorite rod is the Sage 7126 TCX.

 

Andrew Moy owner of Tightlines in NJ is also a friend, he is located near the NJ salt and has extensive experience in THOH casting.

 

Rich Murphy who wrote "Fly Fishing for Striped Bass" lives on the Cape and fishes year round. Rich has revised the recommendations of longer rods in his book, take a look in his rod tube and you will find the Sage 7126 TCX. Rich attends our New England Spey Clave and shows his Cape fly patterns and shooting line set ups to visitors.

 

Listen to the people with experience actually casting and fishing the Sage 7126 TCX, not theory from people who have never cast the rod.

 

Is it a Spey 7wt or 8wt,,, we do not care,,, it is one of most the outstanding rods designed by Sage and will become a "Classic" for TH rods.

 

The concept of "Skagit lines are unsuitable for THOH casting because they were designed for FW Spey casting" is pure nonsense. The line does not care if it is cast over head or Spey style. Do not forget the original Skagit of 10-13 years ago was a "garden hose" taper and made from cut up level lines. Today the Sakgit lines have front and back tapers and do turn over very nicely when THOH cast. May use a loop to loop front tapered section or just loop on some T-11, T-14 etc. We have new Intermediate Skagit heads and tips for the salt.

 

The Pandion is a TFO TH rod product for THOH in the Salt, developed by Nick Curcione (originally from CT) and rocks with his Skagit THOH line set-up, Rio Skagit short (20ft) with 15'-17' of T-14 or T-17 on the front end. These rods will excel at THOH and Skagit water borne cast very nicely. We were with Nick at Somerset in Jan '12 for two days and had many people on the lawn who had never cast THOH, the response was very favorable.

 

All rods and especially TH rods have a "Grain Window" or range of lines that the rod will comfortably cast. Lighter line give higher line speed but reduce the effective payload (fly weight) that can be cast efficiently. There is no "correct or incorrect" line weight for the modern TH rods,,, whatever you personally feel comfortable is the right line for your casting style.

 

Shorter THOH rods,,, I now own the original CND Atlantis and two Loomis Cross Current rods, specifically designed around the RIO Outbound line series, they are excellent in the salt. The new Beulah and other 8/9/10 wt 11'-11'9" rods are also very functional with the correct lines.

I also have the TFO 12x12 and recently was given a new comp. rod by Thomas & Thomas, their discontinued 12x12 THOH rod which I consider the nicest casting of the lot. In addition, we were told by T&T that they have the mandrels available to make up a short run of the T&T 12x12 if demand is shown by the community.

 

Regards,

FK

 

Fk,

 

I see you are back already having said you were leaving this site. I wondered just how long that promise would last and just how sincere your applogoy to me was for your earlier downright rudeness and deliberate missrepresentaion of the facts and of what I have said in previous posts regarding TH rod usage Out Front. I guess we all know now.

 

Your primary function has always been to name drop and list the rods you own.. We hear very little of your actual Out Front experience. I have up to now been more than reasonable in my responses to you . Do you truley have any actual real life experience of fishing TH rods in the surf because up to now none of your posts remotley suggests to me that you do.

 

I am trying to genuinely promote the sport of TH Out Front based on experience and with new found knowledege based on that experience, What is sad is that we could/ should be working togther to further this branch of the sport but all you do is put that development back with your negative approach and contuined personal attacks on myself.

 

This must be doing wonders for your own reputation and that of the casting school that you help to run. Needless to say I will not be now visiting the school in Oct. it would be a complete and utter waste of my time. Time better spent fishing.

 

Regards

 

Mike

[GregPavlov]

Greg,

........ Unlike yourself I am still happy even with big powerful TH rods and heavy lines. ........

 

Mike

 

My ideal now would be a rod in the range of 11 1/2 feet casting somewhere in the range of 550. Actually, I would rather fish a one-hander, I feel more "connected" when I do, but there is no way I could do that well so I'll go with what I think you would consider a modest two-hander. But I'm slowly coming around: my first two-hander actually designed for overhead casting (as opposed to my spey rods) was what I thought was an ideal 10'6" and it's taken me just a short 12-15 years to work my way up up to 11 1/2 :-)

[Mike Oliver]

Greg,

 

It is a journey and you decide when you have travelled as far as you want to. I love fishing my SH rods to and after a day with the TH they feel like wands and yes can be that bit more sensitive. Horses for courses.

 

If you could ever meet up with Herb he has an amazing range of TH rods that might just be up your street. My direction has been to work towards a std Beach Fly rod that covers most bases just like a 9 foot 9wt or 10wt rod does for the SH Guys. But there is always a place for 7 and 8 wt SH rods for those that like to use them when they can and that applies to Surf TH rods as well.

 

Mike

[GregPavlov]

FK, I am not quite sure what the purpose of the first half of your post was, but I notice that two of the names you mention suggested grain weights in the low to mid 400 range for the 7126 and both thought that the OB 10 would be a good match for it. After trying and using different shooting head combinations (including Skagit) on THOC rods I've come to the same conclusion as Mike: I much prefer integrated lines meant for OC.

 

The 7126 is clearly underrated as a "7 wt."

[fkrow]

Greg,

 

As I posted earlier, the "correct line weight" is your personal choice, the rod has a generous "grain window" and is very flexible.

 

Integrated lines can be easily made with various splicing methods, heads direct spliced to running lines has been done for many years.

You should not have your line selection determined by the limited factory offerings.

 

The Sage 7126 TCX rating of 7wt is not a number related to specific line grain weight, it is a starting point and the individual caster should determine their comfort zone. The rod is stiffer than the typical 12.5-13.5ft 7wt TH rod, most consider it a 7.5wt rod.

 

The first half of my post was to reinforce the experience in use of the Sage 7126 TCX by many well respected members of the fishing industry and community.

They vary in recommendations due to explanation above.

 

This is a downfall of all modern TH rods, you cannot walk into a fly shop and just buy one line as we do for a SH rod.

It takes time and experimenting on your own or go by the recommendations of others, which may not fit your individual casting style.

 

Regards,

FK

[tth]

I want to let everyone know that I really value and respect your opinions here. Thank you all for your suggestions. Currently, this is what I'm thinking of doing. I've cast an Outbound Short Intermediate (30' head) in a 9 and 10 weight on the Sage TCX 7126. I like the 10 weight OBS the best on this rod so far but I haven't cast anything heavier yet. I think that I will purchase an Outbound Intermediate 10 weight (38' head) so that I can compare the performance of the different head lengths.

 

I am also curious about all the recommendations using Skagit heads for THOH casting. I'm also considering purchasing the SA Skagit Extreme Intermediate Head (520 grain) with both 10' and 15' Intermediate tips to experiment with. Several of you are using similar set ups and I think I'll start with this weight head and try it for overhead casting. If I find it is heavier than I like then I can use it for practicing spey type casts and get a lighter Skagit head. Esa, thanks for your recommendation of the Scandi head. As I progress with outfitting this rod, I'll probably add A Scandi head to play with.

 

If anyone has any other suggestions, please chime in. I'm probably going to place my order in the next day or two. This looks like a good place to start. Let the adventure begin!

 

 

fkrow, Frank, I really am interested in what you would recommend since you have this rod and have experience helping people match their rods and lines. Please let me know. Thanks.

 

Thank you everyone for all your help.

 

TIM

[fkrow]

Fk,

 

I see you are back already having said you were leaving this site. I wondered just how long that promise would last and just how sincere your applogoy to me was for your earlier downright rudeness and deliberate missrepresentaion of the facts and of what I have said in previous posts regarding TH rod usage Out Front. I guess we all know now.

 

Your primary function has always been to name drop and list the rods you own.. We hear very little of your actual Out Front experience. I have up to now been more than reasonable in my responses to you . Do you truley have any actual real life experience of fishing TH rods in the surf because up to now none of your posts remotley suggests to me that you do.

 

I am trying to genuinely promote the sport of TH Out Front based on experience and with new found knowledege based on that experience, What is sad is that we could/ should be working togther to further this branch of the sport but all you do is put that development back with your negative approach and contuined personal attacks on myself.

 

This must be doing wonders for your own reputation and that of the casting school that you help to run. Needless to say I will not be now visiting the school in Oct. it would be a complete and utter waste of my time. Time better spent fishing.

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

Mike,

 

I apologize for my apparent frustration and rudeness when responding you your posts.

 

If we can agree on your style of rod and lines as "Out Front" as very high winds in extreme surf conditions. This is your special nich and I respect that position.

 

My concern is that by over emphasizing these conditions, you are discouraging the other 95% of salt water fly fishers who are not casting in your "OUT FRONT" very special conditions. By stating that for THOH only your rod and lines are suitable,,, this does not promote THOH casting for the average newcomer.

 

The various Spey rods from 11ft to 16ft can and have been used very successfully when casting from the beach or in estuaries and rivers with tides.

 

My position is for the newcomer to go out and try the TH rods you already have or can borrow, fish in average conditions, then decide for yourself if you wish to pursue "Out Front" conditions.

 

BTW I have fished with fly rods since the mid 1970's on the Vineyard, Cuttyhunk and Cape Cod as well as CT shoreline, details are not important for discussions of TH rods. I am not interested in extreme weather conditions as you quite rightly explain.

 

Good luck Mike and I again apologize.

 

Regards,

FK

[rogerfowler]

Tim,

 

Listen to the guys who have fished this rod and gain the benefit of their hindsight.....ie Jersey Fly Guy.  I would also pay close attention to the advice of the professionals.  FK and Andrew Moy were fishing the surf with 2h rods long before most of the boards current members.  The guys at Tightlines are very knowledgeable on THOH casting.  They spend a lot of time in the surf and their recommendations are rock solid.....

 

You have one of the best two handed rods in existence that will handle a broad spectrum of lines.  This isn't a big deal.  Go to a shop that will let you try two or three different lines and pick the one that feels the best to you.  Fish more and read this forum less.