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AMMO

"RULE of 100"

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There are those who disagree, but not me!

 

If the AIR TEMPERATURE and the WATER TEMPERATURE do not add up to 100 (or more) you are taking your life in your hands by paddling.

 

If I err, let it be on the side of safety!

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There are those who disagree, but not me!

 

If the AIR TEMPERATURE and the WATER TEMPERATURE do not add up to 100 (or more) you are taking your life in your hands by paddling.

 

If I err, let it be on the side of safety!

 

Definitely have to put the right clothes on as well. Dress for immersion.

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Everyone who paddles should read the "I'm a lucky guy" link. Dave was lucky indeed, and learned his lesson the hard way. A pair of waders full of water won't pull you to the bottom, because water cannot be heavier than water. The problem is, with a pair of waders full of water, self-recovery is quite impossible. If you are an appreciable distance from shore, and the water is cold, your very life is in danger. Waders are not a "poor man's drysuit". They are a "poor substitute for a drysuit". Wetsuits are bouyant, and keep you warm when you are immersed. Long before I paddled, I was taught never to wear waders on a jetty! Once again, climbing out of the water is quite impossible. Waders are for wading. On a kayak, they are simply an accident waiting to happen (IMO). I agree with Dave, NO fish is worth your life.

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Yes, I'll have to disagree since no one else has said anything. It's always good to post a heads up about colder conditions every year about this time and I thank you but "Rule of 100" over simplifies conditions. People who intend to keep paddling later or especially earlier in the season have to do some more research into hypothermia prevention and cold water safety. You can easily drown if the air is 75 and the water is 35.

 

I have no death wish and will continue to wear waders on the yak as part of a well reasoned and tested package but you certainly have to hope you are a very lucky guy wearing waders with the top open even if you're just wading the beach in high surf.

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Actually Jim, the Spring is more dangerous than the Fall. You are absolutely correct in observing that 35 degree water temperature is lethal, regardless of how warm the air may be.

 

But I am not convinced of the safety of your makeshift drysuit design, and hope that you never find out the flaw in your reasoning. You do realize you are betting your life that you are correct. I NEVER make a bet that I can't afford to lose.

 

Risk/reward ratio compares what you stand to lose versus what you stand to gain. If I were marooned on an uninhabited island without food or water, perhaps I would take greater chances than I would if I were out for purely recreational reasons. No fish is worth my life.

 

I cannot imagine a greater horror than being a mile offshore, dumping, and being unable to remount, as the cold water slowly numbs my body. Wading in Springtime, I feel the cold right through all the layers, and make frequent trips to the sand. I hope, at least, that you are kayaking with a buddy, because under those circumstances, the only hope you have of surviving, is being rescued by someone else.

 

I frequently paddle alone, and so I must be more conservative in guaging what conditions are "safe". Again, if I err, let it be on the side of caution.

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I only disagree in that the "rule of 100" over simplies the risks. Other conditions like tides, waves, wind can really complicate things in a hurry. Nearly all paddling fatalities are inexperinced paddlers who capsize in moderately cold water and cannot perform a self rescue. Most aren't wearing PFDs and abt half are fishing. I paddle nearly all year and you definitely have to make other accomodations in very cold weather. I pick my times and places. In 35-40 degree water your gasp reaction can drown you in an instant. In 45-50 degree water a wetsuit (farmer john) may not protect you although with a dry top it may be adequate. Waders can safely be worn in some conditions by some people in some kayaks. I won't wear waders in the sea kayak. I only mentioned the waders because they can drown people even if they're just wading.

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Waders is but one component of an overall outfit the must be matched with a DRY top, wading belt, and PFD to be effective against immersion. Used properly, you can delay or prevent water intrusion into your waders and the resultant inability to re-enter your yak. Waders and a DRY top is like Peanut Butter and Jelly- best used together. Waders should never be worn without a DRY top or by itself.

 

I have a GUL #1 top with latex seals around the neck and wrists. At the waist, it has a double seal (neoprene and velcro). This will seal an air bubble down below my waistline and that is the secret of all this. My wader top is up to my chest. When I use my elastic wading belt and my PFD cinched down tight like a girdle, I doubt much air, if any, will be pushed out of my DRY top to allow water in (sorta like a glass held upside down in a pot of water). If you don't let the air out of your DRY top, the water cannot enter from below.

 

Along with the proper layers of clothing underneath, this should allow me sufficient time to climb back into my yak or call for help on the VHF i have strapped to my PFD.

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In theory, that sounds great. But in the real world, your "PFD cinched tight like a girdle" or your elastic belt, or your drysuit's seal at the neckline, or at the wrists, will get uncomfortable. But if you compromise the integrity of the seal, you run the risk of getting water in the waders. Why not just admit that bootfoot waders are a hazard on the water? What is your objection to a wetsuit? It is flotation, and when you wear one, the PFD is redundant. A wetsuit is less expensive than the dry top alone! Of course, if you wear the proper pants with the drytop, you have the best system of all. Waders have no business in water that is deeper than your waist. (My opinion). If they were a perfect compliment to a dry top, manufacturers wouldn't make the other half of a drySUIT.

 

Somebody has brainwashed a whole group of kayakers into thinking Bootfoot waders are safe on the water. Sooner or later, the result will be tragic. I've yet to hear how a wetsuit can be hazardous. There is nothing wrong with a drysuit either, except maybe the price.

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I wear stockingfoot waders with a Drytop, is that ok. smile.gif No just kidding. I know people that wear drysuits and I know people that just wear waders with a drytop and neither have had a problem. My point is if your going to go its gonna happen no matter what your wearing. I tested my waders and belt with NRS boots,drytop and PFD, no water to be found. You must test what your going to wear just floating in the water and remounting on your yak to see if its going to work for ya. You also have to use your head about what you can and can't do. If it looks too rough out ,stay on the sand. If wearing waders on a yak was no good, NJ would be the first state to outlaw it. Rollcast

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Ammodyte, I guess you and I agree on the same goal - wear something that insulates you against the cold and keeps you dry. Where we differ is how we achieve that goal. In the end, we must agree to disagree kiss.gif as both methods will achieve the same goal.

 

What you said about compromising the integrity of the seal is fundamental to both the Dry Suit and the Dry Top. Not to be antagonistic, but I can say that if you compromise the seal of a Dry Suit, you run the risk of getting water in your Dry Suit, as well. In the end, if the seals hold up on both the Dry Suit and the Dry Top, then you will remain dry. Simple as that - one goal achieved.

 

As far as insulating you against the cold, the Dry Suit can do a good job at that alone and you can supplement with addtional clothing under bitter cold conditions. (IMO, I would not want to be out there to begin with) One disadvantage is that in nippy conditions, the Dry Suit may be too warm for the wearer and become too sweaty/hot and uncomfortable. Keep in mind the Dry Suit is more focused on survival purposes and is over engineered to that purpose. The waders/dry top combo offer you more flexibility as the wearer decides how much insulative clothing to wear.

 

Most dry suits are expensive as well. You may luck out and find one on sale and it may end up costing the same as a Wader/Dry Top/PFD combo, but generally it costs much more. Also, the Dry Suits I have seen are kinda stiff as well. IMHO, I just prefer more freedom of movement.

 

I will not admit waders with a DRY Top properly sealed with a PFD (again, all the components must be there) is a hazard on the water, because in my opinion, I don't feel that way. I will say that waders alone, either with a wetsuit or any other insulating material, like fleece, can be dangerous... in certain conditions.

 

I have no objections to a wetsuit. That has its place and time when it can be worn and it is suitable for certain conditions. Even on this board, some wetsuit wearers have stated, under certain windy and cold conditions, that when it's dry it does not keep you warm enough. When it's wet, the evaporative cooling chills the wearer. So maybe not good for really cold or windy conditions, but fine for early fall conditions. As far as cost, I bet I can find a top of the line thick wetsuit that will cost more than a cheapo PFD. On the other hand, I bet I can find some top of the line PFD that will cost more than the cheapo thin wetsuit. So, no winners there and let's leave that alone. For me, I like the feeling of staying dry and not being wet in a wetsuit.

 

As long as I have known "Somebody", he has never pushed boot foot waders, but rather stocking foot waders and the yakker chooses boots or booties (I wear booties). Lastly, I form my own opinions and draw from other's knowledge, experience, and opinions. One example is that I like the way you hook up your anchor with the thin zip tie to ease retrieval if it gets stuck, or your PVC "forest" you showed me a couple of years back. So, until someone shows me something better I would be inclined to hook up my anchor like yours.

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Sinbad, I never saw someone wear a wetsuit with waders. I even doubt you could put waders on over one. I also wasn't comparing the cost of a wetsuit to that of a PFD, but rather to a drysuit. Wetsuit versus drysuit. You can buy a wetsuit for less than the cost of a drysuit TOP.

 

When it gets too cold for a 3mm wetsuit, I simply retire for the season. In all fairness, I admit you can stretch the season by 3 or even 4 weeks by wearing a drysuit top. Then again, the November fishery has not been so hot for a few years now, so quitting before Haloween is no big deal.

 

While I am civilized enough to "agree to disagree", there are many inexperienced kayakers perusing this board, and I consider it my duty to give them the best information that I know. I would feel very guilty if someone paid the ultimate price following my advice. If I err, let it be on the side of safety. I have always been taught that waders have no business in or even near deep water. Experience showed me the wisdom of that. Stockingfoot waders are a partial improvement to bootfoot models, but I've never seen "stockingfoot" stipulated. They could be modified for even further safety by slitting the sole, or even cutting off the part below the ankle. But that kind of defeats the purpose, wouldn't you say?

 

I object to anything that holds water. I'll stick with my wetsuit for several reasons, and safety is the first. Comfort runs a close second. Cost is WAY down the list, but still suggests that a wetsuit is the way to go. If you already have the drysuit top, subtract the cost of waders from the cost of drysuit pants, and realize how little money you are compromising your safety for.

 

How many kayaks have you progressed through since your "battleship"?

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Ammodyte, last season, I hosted a get-together and one guy did just that. Wore a wetsuit inside waders with no top. He said he is an excellent swimmer and he will be alright. I said how are you gonna get back into your yak after your waders fill up with water and you weigh another 100 lbs? No answer.

 

As for the newbie yakkers, they need to understand that IF THEY EVEN CONSIDER WADERS, THEY MUST WEAR IT IN CONJUNCTION WITH A DRY TOP AND PFD. Nothing half-a$$ed about it... all or

nothing.

 

As for stocking foot waders being stipulated, I have never heard him or his partner ever recommend boot foot waders. If you went to their site, you will not see boot foot waders available for sale, but you will find chest high and waist high waders with a selection of booties and wet shoes.

 

I agree with you about anything holding water... that is a bad thing. Again, that is one of the goals.

 

As far as yaks, I still have my Cobra Tourer and I have added a OK Prowler to my fleet. Both are pretty fast. I would buy another yak if a mfg would make a 17' SOT yak that is stable enough to catch big fish and cover loads of territory.

 

[ 10-13-2004, 11:10 PM: Message edited by: mrsinbad ]

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I never saw someone wear a wetsuit with waders. I even doubt you could put waders on over one.

 

I did see someone last year wearing that combo.

I wear the stocking foot wader/Dry Top Combo.

If your going to wear stocking foot wader/Dry Top combo make sure you have 2 wader belts. 1 to cinch down your waders and the other to cinch down the inner layer of the dry top to the waders. Then make sure you test it out before you go out on the kayak. Walk out into the water and swim around for a few minutes. Make sure absolutely no water gets in cause if water gets in your as good as dead when the water/weather gets cold.

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