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rchipbrown

K guides vs Low Riders

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Are K guides really an upgrade over low-riders for braid-only surf rods? I fish the surf extensively with rods fitted with low-riders and I have NEVER had any sort of tangle caused by the low riders during casting.

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K guides are designed to eliminate guide wraps on high performance rods under 12ft. Lowriders are designed to eliminate guide wraps on high performance rods over 12ft.

 

K guides offer similar guide wrap shedding performance that Lowriders have but permit more traditional layouts on shorter rods. Putting Lowriders on rods under 12ft results in less than optimal layouts either having the collector too far up the blank (adhering to the 120cm rule) or too close resulting in blow-by when used with long cast /aggressive line dispensing reels.

 

They are not an "upgrade" but more of an alternative method of attaining guide wrap shedding performance.

 

Here is a great conversation about K guides that explains completely my beliefs about the guides and serves as the reason I no longer post in the rodbuilding forum.

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K guides are designed to eliminate guide wraps on high performance rods under 12ft. Lowriders are designed to eliminate guide wraps on high performance rods over 12ft.

K guides offer similar guide wrap shedding performance that Lowriders have but permit more traditional layouts on shorter rods. Putting Lowriders on rods under 12ft results in less than optimal layouts either having the collector too far up the blank (adhering to the 120cm rule) or too close resulting in blow-by when used with long cast /aggressive line dispensing reels.

They are not an "upgrade" but more of an alternative method of attaining guide wrap shedding performance.

Here is a great conversation about K guides that explains completely my beliefs about the guides and serves as the reason I no longer post in the rodbuilding forum.

 

How about the 2 pieces rod which is 12 foot long? Would you prefer the K guides or lowriders? I am building several 12 foot long blanks, and debating what to use. I have already built one with the K guides, and am thinking of the traditional layout for the second one and the lowriders for the third blank.

 

I had bad experience with low riders, the wind knots, which I believe was caused by the guides. This is the only reason I am hesitate.

 

Would you please shed some lights on the lowriders guides spacing? How many guides would you use on a Century 12 foot 2 pieces rod blank? How about the ring sizes you would put on it?

 

Thank you in advance. By the way, I learned a lot from your posts. Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

 

 

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I had bad experience with low riders, the wind knots, which I believe was caused by the guides. This is the only reason I am hesitate..

 

With the long distance between the reel & first guide I would assume you have to pay a little more attention when retrieving line, especially in windy conditions with certain plugs/lures. I never surf fish so what do I know. Setting up an LC or ANY set up is not difficult to do yourself, but one of every guide, tape them in place and go out and test cast. move hte guides, repeat. Switch guides, repeat. Repeat until oyu are satisfied with the results. The first guide is the most important, the placement of it will depends on teh reel you are using since the line comes off hte spool at different...I dunno - wavelengths or coils or whatever you want to call it - based on teh diameter & length of the spool.

 

imo

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Ones A rocket scientist and the other is A neuro surgeon.

They're the authority of everything and at the end they

get nothing done.

 

All of these guide concepts work. Here's another one that

I like. You're going to use 3 different frames and lets say

for arguments sake all of the frames are titanium and the

rings are silicon carbide, For starters. In real world

fishing rod building the ring sizes vary from one frame to

another. If the gatherer or first connecting guide is A

30 size ring, there's A chance that the first reduction

guide can be A 40 ring size. But to keep everything simple

and understanding I'm going to keep it in chronological order.

Now lets go forward with the guide train.

 

The gatherer is A MN frame in A size 40

The first reduction guide is A size 30 ring LC

The next two are 20 size LC rings

Then there's the size 10 LC the choke.

Your runners are 4 KW's size 10 ring.

last but not least is the tip top.

 

This forum has always been A great place for an "anglers resource"

In conclusion of my post I would like to leave everyone with the

immortal words of Homer Simpson. We have the beatles and England

has the rolling Stones. Yours truly the "Clown Doctor"

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Ones A rocket scientist and the other is A neuro surgeon.

They're the authority of everything and at the end they

get nothing done.

All of these guide concepts work. Here's another one that

I like. You're going to use 3 different frames and lets say

for arguments sake all of the frames are titanium and the

rings are silicon carbide, For starters. In real world

fishing rod building the ring sizes vary from one frame to

another. If the gatherer or first connecting guide is A

30 size ring, there's A chance that the first reduction

guide can be A 40 ring size. But to keep everything simple

and understanding I'm going to keep it in chronological order.

Now lets go forward with the guide train.

The gatherer is A MN frame in A size 40

The first reduction guide is A size 30 ring LC

The next two are 20 size LC rings

Then there's the size 10 LC the choke.

Your runners are 4 KW's size 10 ring.

last but not least is the tip top.

This forum has always been A great place for an "anglers resource"

In conclusion of my post I would like to leave everyone with the

immortal words of Homer Simpson. We have the beatles and England

has the rolling Stones. Yours truly the "Clown Doctor"

 

I like the 'Who also believes in the motto that "distance matters!"' very much. My fishing buddies never put in any efforts for the distance, though they cast well and have the know-how. I to them is just like wasting time in something you don't need.

 

But, does LC 30 ever exist? Ain't the largest ring size of LC guides 20?

 

 

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How about the 2 pieces rod which is 12 foot long? Would you prefer the K guides or lowriders? I am building several 12 foot long blanks, and debating what to use. I have already built one with the K guides, and am thinking of the traditional layout for the second one and the lowriders for the third blank.

 

I'm sorry, I just saw this, have been busy away from SOL.

 

Either would be workable options. I would decide using a few criteria if I were optimizing for performance.

 

First criteria would be rod action. The LC gatherer pushed out near halfway up the blank can impact power and performance on a slower action rod. So, for a slower rod I would lean towards K's in a Concept layout which allows a closer gatherer in a more "typical" spinner layout. For a zoned action rod with its stiff butt that isn't as influenced from that unsupported lower area, (and its greater velocity generating potential), I would lean towards Lowriders.

 

The type of reel intended (long cast design or not) would also impact my decision as does intended line type and diameter. The lower the performance potential of the combined components the more I would lean towards K's especially single foots for <4oz rated plugging sticks (for weight savings). OTOH, the lower that overall performance potential is, the less it really matters whether you adhere to prototypical Fuji LC spacings so this dilemma really just becomes a styling choice at that point.

 

I had bad experience with low riders, the wind knots, which I believe was caused by the guides. This is the only reason I am hesitate.

 

"Wind" knots (as in loops of line coming off the spool in a big mess) are not caused by the casting they are caused by the winding in. Guides really have nothing to do with them but in the case of the 20mm LC, the smaller the opening the better chance the knot has of clumping/catching the guide.

 

Would you please shed some lights on the lowriders guides spacing? How many guides would you use on a Century 12 foot 2 pieces rod blank? How about the ring sizes you would put on it?

 

I'll say up front I only build for myself and I have no interest building any of these newer Century's, their actions just don't work for me. To be honest, after nearly 10 years of building Lowrider surf rods I still begin a new build (first time with a particular blank or reel) with the Fuji prototype spacing adjusted with the Fuji formula for rod length. If you give me your butt length (cap to reel stem) I can give you these dimensions. I have attached the fuji Lowrider diagram at the bottom of the post if you would like to do the math yourself.

 

I do test cast a lot and have only moved the gatherer to eliminate blow-by when using aggressive dispensing long cast reels and thin braids . . . and that has always been out (away) from the reel. Blow-by is when the line passes the first guide without going through it then must reverse itself and wiggle back through. Blow-by is never a good thing and none is the only acceptable amount.

 

This is the first thing I check for as it is different for every set-up of blank, reel and line. Here's a little secret . . . for these short rods (12ft and under) I don't actually cast the rod to check it.

 

I spike the rod I'm testing at a 30 degree angle, secure the reel to the spike and use a very high performance set-up to cast a long shocker attached to the clip and weight (often heavier than the rod I'm testing is rated for) to tow the line off the test reel, though the test guide train at a velocity and distance that the test subject could never attain. This way I am isolating just for unmolested line flow off the intended reel without imparting rod recovery movement (disruption of line flow) into the test "cast". I alternate between this very high velocity line test and static deflection (right there pulling on the embedded sinker) and adjust if needed and then when I'm happy, unsnap the long shocker and test cast it normally with an appropriate weight.

 

Once I am happy with all that I spike the rod again and attach a mini nerf football (that I have through wired) to the weight and cast that with the big rod. This tests line flow that begins with very high velocity that then quickly decelerates because of the aerodynamics of the lure. With high performance reels this can create problems in the guide train as the line's velocity remains high coming off the reel but lure speed is dying fast resulting in slack line and coils growing in diameter just looking for trouble . . . Just as loose line going on the reel causes trouble, loose line that's no longer being towed but trying to navigate through the guides can cause trouble.

 

I'll also note (more for other readers) that I have used this technique to check line flow between different guide designs / layouts.

 

Identical test set-ups are spiked side by side each with identical weights and their own identical extended shockers. The shockers are carefully reeled onto the big launching set-up and thrown. Since the energy imparted to each is EXACTLY the same and the atmospherics and drag are EXACTLY the same, ANY difference in distance is ONLY attributable to friction in the guide train. My testing has resulted in some interesting conclusions. I'm very interested in what the results will be in the testing planned for April 21st.

 

Thank you in advance. By the way, I learned a lot from your posts. Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

 

Thank you and you're welcome.

 

Here is the Lowrider adjustment formula:

 

254

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How about something like this. A rod that's built for maximum distance and designed

for dual purpose use. Where you can use A spinning or conventional interchangeably. Then

you can add the tip top guide of what ever size you need. Do you think it will work? It's hard to

say when you don't know the guys shoe size.

 

 

[img=

 

 

http://www.stripersonline.com/image/id/3412807/width/540/height/359]

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ReelinRod, I don't know how to put it but thank you so much for these valuable inputs. You, and some other members, are the true reason we like to come and visit SOL seeking help and listening to advices. Thanks.

 

I may need some time to fully understand what you talked about. It seems a lot of information and concepts I need to learn from you.

 

Thanks again.

 

 

 

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How about something like this. A rod that's built for maximum distance and designed

for dual purpose use. Where you can use A spinning or conventional interchangeably.

 

It is very easy to adjust a concept build so it performs well with both reel types. This is another reason I like CTS blanks; because there is no woven fiber in the construction there is minimal spine (if any) . . . A great thing for building dual purpose.

 

I may need some time to fully understand what you talked about. It seems a lot of information and concepts I need to learn from you.

 

I think the way I do it is less complicated and certainly less constrained . . . I pay less attention to the reel angle or intersection point or any of that other perfect stepping of guide rings that others are so fixated on. I only concern myself with actual line flow and how rod action during recovery can effect it. I let the reel's performance / line flow and the rod's recovery tell me where to put the guides.

 

I will admit placing a guide to a specific point and leaving it there . . .

 

I precisely place what I call the "anchor" guide on the upper section of the rod. This placement is entirely dependent on rod action and butt length and is not moved unless the reel seat is moved. This guide goes where the rod's oscillation motion is "dead" . . . the exact spot where the rod, when held firmly at the reel seat and thumped with a fist on the butt, is completely motionless. This means that the guide placed there remains absolutely motionless (during recovery) and "anchors" the line as it travels down a guide train that is vibrating all over the place. Whether this guide (or any guide) falls where the reel stem points to, is of zero importance to me; it's about line flow not passing a geometry exam.

 

In the final analysis, if anyone wants to argue that a spinner fishing set-up that achieves 700+ft casts with a 5 oz weight is built "wrong" they should feel free to purchase, lay-out, wrap, find someone that can actually cast that far and walk the 1/4 mile out and back and show me where mistakes have been made.

 

Sometimes "wow" seems inadequate.

 

Exactly. My hats off to ReelinRod.

 

Thanks for the kind words but be careful, you are risking the same fate as Ozzie Guillen praising Castro.

 

I'm locked out persona non grata in one forum and praised in another LOL.

 

 

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It is very easy to adjust a concept build so it performs well with both reel types. This is another reason I like CTS blanks; because there is no woven fiber in the construction there is minimal spine (if any) . . . A great thing for building dual purpose.

I think the way I do it is less complicated and certainly less constrained . . . I pay less attention to the reel angle or intersection point or any of that other perfect stepping of guide rings that others are so fixated on. I only concern myself with actual line flow and how rod action during recovery can effect it. I let the reel's performance / line flow and the rod's recovery tell me where to put the guides.

 

I will admit placing a guide to a specific point and leaving it there . . .

 

I precisely place what I call the "anchor" guide on the upper section of the rod. This placement is entirely dependent on rod action and butt length and is not moved unless the reel seat is moved. This guide goes where the rod's oscillation motion is "dead" . . . the exact spot where the rod, when held firmly at the reel seat and thumped with a fist on the butt, is completely motionless. This means that the guide placed there remains absolutely motionless (during recovery) and "anchors" the line as it travels down a guide train that is vibrating all over the place. Whether this guide (or any guide) falls where the reel stem points to, is of zero importance to me; it's about line flow not passing a geometry exam.

 

In the final analysis, if anyone wants to argue that a spinner fishing set-up that achieves 700+ft casts with a 5 oz weight is built "wrong" they should feel free to purchase, lay-out, wrap, find someone that can actually cast that far and walk the 1/4 mile out and back and show me where mistakes have been made.

Thanks for the kind words but be careful, you are risking the same fate as Ozzie Guillen praising Castro.

 

I'm locked out persona non grata in one forum and praised in another LOL.

 

 

After building many surf rods with different layouts I came back to read this thread again only found it truly useful. ReelinRod deserves my sincere gratitude and highly respect. Thanks for the help.

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ReelinRod,

 

Just had a read through this thread, and thanks also from me. I've now printed it out to go in the shed with my gear, perhaps to have a go at it one day.

 

Regards,

 

SB

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