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Help with VS measurements for NGC layout

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I sent my reels out for service and forgot I needed a few measurements.

 

What are you guys using a the spool diameter measurements for the VS 250 and the 200 when setting up an NGC style concept layout?

 

If I remember correctly (notes from previous build are not in front of me), the 250 is 27 x 2.6 resulting in the first choker guide placed somewhere out around 70 inches

Would anyone happen to know or have the measurement to use for the 200? 27x ?????

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Your talking X27 method or NGC layout?? NGC you won't need the spool dia. PM Surffisher mike he has all the messurements to layout for a VS and NGC. If it's X27 just go with 2 1/4" you will be close enough. VS, ZB and the Penn Torque have nearly no down sweep to them. We have been testing NGC layouts for months now and have found that choker placement... doesn't matter all that much but the stripper up to choke is where you need to test cast and fine tune. Hairs not need to be split with guide layout, 99% of layouts will cast just fine!!

 

Anymore I just do modified NGC which is like COF with a choker and runners.. just eye ball the line and space, check your stadic test and then test cast and all will work fine. 9 times out of 10 casting distance is the same with any of the concept style layouts and even a well done COF.. Oh and forget using a #40 stripper unless your doing SV guides!!

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X27 is and isn't NGC..... same result for the most part just cuts the corner a bit.. Sounds like the set up I would go with!! PM SurffisherMike he can give you all the messurements if you need.

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vs 200 is 67.5 using the 27x method. but i wouldnt build the rod without the reel. keep in mind the 27x rule is giving you a starting point. meassuring the size of the spool really has nothing to do with where the line would intersect the blank. its method that can be used (and it does a good job) on all reels when you dont knwo what the actual angle of the reel to the rod which with the height can be used to determine the line intersect. my point being start with your choke there but dont move it if you need to when test casting or doing the static testing if you need to

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Absolutely. I def. understand the "concept" behind the layout. Have built a couple already and had to make minor tweeks and they work flawlessly. Thanks for the response.

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I have been using the K guides. 30, 25, 16, and running 10's to the tip. I thought the NGC was the 27x method. Sorry about the confusion. Thanks for the reply.

 

X27 is and isn't NGC..... same result for the most part just cuts the corner a bit.. Sounds like the set up I would go with!! PM SurffisherMike he can give you all the messurements if you need.

 

27X is in fact the exact NGC System , New Guide Concept" System as written about in Rodmaker Magazine. It is not the "Fuji Concept" system. The NGC is a system aimed at simplifying guide placement. The NGC and Fuji "Concepts" often get transmutilated (hows that for a word :) ) mixed up and most importantly...combined to figure out guide layouts.

 

 

I like NGC and I like the Fuji Concept and I like the straight forward guide placement that results from satisfying an even distribution based on a Stress Test. Now IMO the best method take all three things into consideration and never forget to throw in a pinch of COF. :)

 

These days I use the computer a lot to get the basic guide locations I want to eventually tweak. I use quadratic equations to arrive at something I like based on the stress test. I use the NGC as a second method. I incorporate the reel upsweep like the Fuji Concept and I choose sizes by looking at fuctions like passing leader knots based on the old COF methods. These days we also have the GPS Software at Anglers Resource for further computer modeling. Guide placement can be done as simply or as complicated as you want. I like complicated. :) I don't recommend complicated for everyone.

 

Bottom line is to satisfy the many functions the guides perform like guiding the line in casting and distributing the load and strain evenly when fighting a fish.

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As stated there are alot of different ways to get your starting points, first I use a compass to get the actual angle of the reel to the blank and get the distance from the blank to the reel center, cosine .... And see if the reel has an angle to the rod the would give a true intersect of the line and blank. The consider the 27x method. Cone of flight is always a part regardless of which method since the layout from reel to choke is really cone of flight concept. At this point the biggest consideration is really supporting the blank and fighting the fish cause I feel that is most important and if I get an optimum casting setup and tweak it to satisfy the other condierations it never effects the casting enough to notice

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27X is in fact the exact NGC System , New Guide Concept" System as written about in Rodmaker Magazine. It is not the "Fuji Concept" system. The NGC is a system aimed at simplifying guide placement. The NGC and Fuji "Concepts" often get transmutilated (hows that for a word :) ) mixed up and most importantly...combined to figure out guide layouts.

I like NGC and I like the Fuji Concept and I like the straight forward guide placement that results from satisfying an even distribution based on a Stress Test. Now IMO the best method take all three things into consideration and never forget to throw in a pinch of COF. :)

These days I use the computer a lot to get the basic guide locations I want to eventually tweak. I use quadratic equations to arrive at something I like based on the stress test. I use the NGC as a second method. I incorporate the reel upsweep like the Fuji Concept and I choose sizes by looking at fuctions like passing leader knots based on the old COF methods. These days we also have the GPS Software at Anglers Resource for further computer modeling. Guide placement can be done as simply or as complicated as you want. I like complicated. :) I don't recommend complicated for everyone.

Bottom line is to satisfy the many functions the guides perform like guiding the line in casting and distributing the load and strain evenly when fighting a fish.

 

Ahh, actually Fuji's Concept is NGC.. X27 is a math method Xspool diameter. Gets you close to the same place! But NGC is Fuji's concept.. It can get confusing and really doesn't matter, Just using smaller guides on the tip and getting the line down quick and smooth is the name of the game!!

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Just to clarify, I developed the 27X system due to there being so many spool upsweep diameters and so often that upsweep placed the choker guide completely off the rod tip, even in cases where reasonable sized reels were used on reasonably long rods. The whole concept of using spool upsweep just seemed arbitrary to me. Two reels with the same sized spool, but a degree or two difference in upsweep angle, shouldn't have two different choke guide locations. Spool diameter, not spool upsweep angle, plays the far greater role in casting.

 

I didn't, however, just pull that factor out of the air. Taking into account just over 100 New Guide Concept rods that had been set up and tweaked for optimum performance with the standard Fuji spool upsweep method, I averaged the results for choker guide location. It came out to a distance from the feel face that was 27 times the diameter of the reel spool.

 

It is important to remember, of course, that the 27X system is designed to work exceptionally well with any reel, rod and line size. But the fact that is in an all-inclusive method means that it won't necessarily be absolutely perfect for any specific outfit. You may find that the use of very small diameter braided lines allows you to move the choker guide closer than 27X and get as good or better performance. Or, that the use of very heavy mono works better when the choker guide is pushed out a little beyond 27X. It'll work great for any set up, but if you want the absolute maximum from your outfit, test cast and don't be afraid to move the choker out or in until you get the best overall performance. Don't be surprised, however, if 27X ends up giving you the best performance. In many cases, it will.

 

Two things to remember: 1. Spinning reels don't "shoot" line off the spool. Thus, the amount of spool upsweep involved is really not a factor - the line never has any idea at what angle the spool itself is aimed. 2. With very large reels on very short rods (stand-up spinning gear for instance) you may find that with any NGC system your choker guide is still located off the rod tip. In this case, the tiptop becomes the choker guide and you have no running guides.

 

The Fuji GPS system, online at the Anglers Resource website, is a great boon to all rod builders. It's quick and easy to use and should be of particularly great help to beginners.

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Thanks Tom...and Surfmaster. NGC (New Guide Concept) IS the Fuji Concept. Now we have to deal with the new KR CONCEPT...two guide reduction trains, closer choke points, smaller stripper rings. It's enough to make smoke come out of your ears. I can't wait to see what emerges from the surf rod community after these guides are available. It'll make for some interesting threads!

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Off topic but yet on topic... Do you know if Fuji plans on expanding the KW line to include a higher 20 and possiable 16 ? The 40 and 30L were a start but starting with a say 30 H to a 25 the drop from the 25 to a 20 or 16 is kind of large. Having these in higher frames would make life a little easier! KR concept..... hmmm... Sounds intresting!!

 

I have built many rods with X27 and with NGC and in truth both cast very well. The one KEY people forget is without stadic testing and more important test casting it's a roll of the dice. You need to stadic to get the blank support IMO and test casting is self explanatory!! Even if I build COF I will do both!!

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Oh , BTW , the first time I heard of it from Fuji , it was called..... The New "Concept Guide" Placement System... that is it was a placement method to use the new Concept Guides and it did not mention 27X , it just involved spool upsweep.

 

Then I read about the 27X in Toms article The NGC System -Vol10 #4. For that reason I attribute the 27X and the NGC name to Tom , not Fuji. Now I do see that in articles written about The New "Concept Guide" Placement System they do interchangeably call it The Fuji Concept Guide Placement System and the New Guide Concept System. Again , no 27X is mentioned in the Fuji write ups..

 

Now don't be surprised by my not getting names straight. I was 45 years old when I fould out my Mother's name was Maria , not Mary! :)

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