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2-hand surf rods at Somerset

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BrianBM

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On another note, has anyone actually used the Guideline RTG PowerTaper heads? They come in three weights, 2 lengths, and a bunch of different densities that seem really useful. I've seen them brought up a few times, but I've never seen anyone mention that they've actually used them for fishing.

 

I have both PT (original without loops and which usually needed shortening and newer "ready to go" PT) and think they have very good taper for OH big fly fishing because the weight difference between back and front halves is not as much as new Scandi Spey heads have. Shooting head can be OH casted both ways. When turned the thick end forward it casts bigger fly.

"Game fish are too valuable to be caught only once" 1939 Lee Wulff
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Fk,

 

Interesting that Ed did not promote TH on the basis of lack of availablity of ready made rods. But it is one thing to put down poor tools but there was nothing to prevent the promotion of the technique in principle. It is interesting that he is suggesting very short 11 foot TH rod. For me and one or two others 11 feet is too short and offers little advantage over a 9 foot SH rod. I have yet to see a Fisher Spey casting or casting a Skagit set up in a decent rolling and breaking surf.

 

Mike

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There are fishermen and -women who simply can not cast SH rod. For them 11 or 12ft TH rod allows the same performance their fishing buddies have. Longer rods would increase the performance but not without more effort.

 

I don't understand why so many search the "best possible" rod and then cast a line which has perhaps only 30ft head?

"Game fish are too valuable to be caught only once" 1939 Lee Wulff
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Crunch,

 

Me too. 30 foot heads are limiting distance wise.

 

Are there really guys who can't cast a 9 footer that they revert to a 12 footer TH. Ok lots of us can't cast that well with a SH but I fail to see why suddenly a new found ability arrives because the rod is 12 feet long. For me the TH is a much more challaging rod to cast.

 

Mike

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Fk,

Interesting that Ed did not promote TH on the basis of lack of availablity of ready made rods. But it is one thing to put down poor tools but there was nothing to prevent the promotion of the technique in principle. It is interesting that he is suggesting very short 11 foot TH rod. For me and one or two others 11 feet is too short and offers little advantage over a 9 foot SH rod. I have yet to see a Fisher Spey casting or casting a Skagit set up in a decent rolling and breaking surf.

Mike

 

Yes, Ed has changed his views on the DH rods relative to the 1990's,,,,, one note of interest,,, Ed was good friends with Hugh Falkus and made three visits to the UK to study two handed rods and casting in the very early 1990's. He did not feel comfortable with the traditional casting techniques and lost interest.

 

One thing of note,,, a good SH caster who can make long casts and catch fish has no need for DH rods,,,, in addition, fishing from a boat,,,, it is much more convient with a 9ft rod.

 

From the beach an 11ft DH rod is a great advantage to someone like myself at age 68,,,, I am exhausted after a long day with 9ft 9wt or 10wt rods,,,,, the DH 11ft is very comfortable to cast all weekend.

 

I have a Sage 15ft 10wt TCR rod as well as the Sage 16ft & 14ft 10wt RPL brown rods,,,,,,, a Skagit 750gr (27ft) line with tips and overhead cast is very impressive. A traditional long belly spey line is just hard work, most of us have retired these rods in favor of 12'6" - 13'6" DH rods with short heads.

 

Surf casting with a Skagit set up:

I am not recommending a North Western Steelhead Skagit cast (water borne anchor),,,,,, Nick Curcione has developed an overhead cast with Skagit line and sinking tip which is very over weight relative to traditional short heads.

Here in the North East we have strong tidal currents and must get the fly down deeper in may cases. If you wish long casts with Intermediate tips,,,,,,,the Rio Outbound lines cut back with loop connections and added to a Skagit head will give you superior distance with little effort.

 

Can a new FF go out and purchase a TFO Pandion rod or 15ft DH rod and immediately make 120ft+ casts,,,,,,not at all,,,,, most need lessons in technique both for Spey casts and overhead.

 

Regards,

FK

 

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Crunch,

Me too. 30 foot heads are limiting distance wise.

Are there really guys who can't cast a 9 footer that they revert to a 12 footer TH. Ok lots of us can't cast that well with a SH but I fail to see why suddenly a new found ability arrives because the rod is 12 feet long. For me the TH is a much more challaging rod to cast.

Mike

 

The 30ft head rule applies mainly to the SH 9ft rod and false casting.

 

When we use the DH, it generates so much higher line speed,,, the short head obtains much more distance.

 

This weekend at Somerset we did demos on the lawn with the new Pandion and Skagit lines with tip (total head length 35ft).

Many SW FF who had never cast a DH rod were able,,,, with a few minutes of instruction,,,,, casting much farther than they ever experienced with a 9ft rod.

 

We then took the rods to an open pond and demo cast traditional Perry Poke waterborne casts and touch and go Spey casts.

 

Nick Curcione has developed a line system that is "out of the box" relative to my 20+ years of DH rod casting.

 

To obtain optimal distance,,, yes practice and timing issues are a reality as well as experimenting with lines and tips to suit your casting style and fishing conditions.

 

Regards,

FK

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Question was asked (I think by Mike O) if there are really SH FF that can cast better with a DH setup of 12ft (or so). Yeah, me for one. But let me explian - in 1988 I had a high spped encounter that left me with what are now 9 herniated disk between my neck and lumabr spine, and extensive accompanying nerve damage in the extemities - as a result, I cannot tolerate pressure on my thumbs for any significant length of time. 10+ years ago. I could double haul and shoot the entire fly line/running line 100 ft all day long with half a chicken wet bunker flyes on my Redington Nona-Ti 9 ft 12 wt. Now, I no longer have any "fast action' 9 ft rods (fastest is a 10 wt Sage RPLXi) and most of my sigle handers are 10 to 10 1/2 ft "switch cast type rods that only see action with fish breaking in front of me (in other words, no since a long time:(). But. I have two TFo trwo handers - 12 ft 6 in 6 wt pro series (discontinued) and 12 ft 12 wt. love them both, and under the right conditions, 125 ft no problem.

 

However, I do have one problem, and that will occur if I ever need a new line. Thing is, I love to greased-line swing flatwings in the surf, especially on those calm nights when striper sjump all over a redfin plug. As a matter of fact, I've never caught a stiper on a fly in the surf on anything other than a flatwing. Prblem is, you can't fish a flatwing right on anything other than a full floating Head, running line and leader. Can't find anything close in 510 grains, which is minimum that loads the 12 ft 12 wt. fortunately I have 2 Rio outbounds. For the 12 ft 6, I only have 1 AiRFLo Beach line, and I probably use that rod 50% of the time, more if you count backwaters.

 

Any suggestions?

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Here in the North East we have strong tidal currents and must get the fly down deeper in may cases. If you wish long casts with Intermediate tips,,,,,,,the Rio Outbound lines cut back with loop connections and added to a Skagit head will give you superior distance with little effort.

 

Please explain how they are put together because I don't understand?

 

And can you tell more about Nick Curcione line system?

 

Esa

 

"Game fish are too valuable to be caught only once" 1939 Lee Wulff
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FK,

 

I enjoy your posts. I can fully understand why Ed was not that enamoured by what he observed in the uk. At that time it was long heavy and slow TH's with upper hand dominant. These UK rods were not really suitable for surf work. To be fair they were designed for rivers and Atlantic Salmon fishing.

One area that I guess I will differ AK is in that I happily and successfuly fish 9 foot 9 wt and 10 wt rods but also enjoy TH a lot. I am not interested per say in the huge casting potential of the TH as once you start fishing with more than 100 feet of line in the surf you start to get line management problems. What I am seeking is the ability to put out casts with the ease of two arms in conditions that can overwhelm a SH rod. The TH is just such fun to fish. I have never tried to cast a skagit line OH yet. I want to try heads from 38 feet to 44 feet in a long belly wf format but the rub is getting them with enough mass.

 

Mike

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However, I do have one problem, and that will occur if I ever need a new line.....

Any suggestions?

 

Heavy floating TH OH line is easy. Any 11/12 short belly Spey line is suitable when some of the very long front taper (which is essential for Spey casting but does not deliver big salt water fly too good) is cut away. Cut portion can be fished with light SH rod perhaps together with polyleader. 11/12 short belly head is about 55ft and 750gr and when 20 to 25ft is cut away it should weights more than 500gr.

 

Because Rio launched UniSpey I have seen Windcutters sold for $29.95. Airflo Deltas for $40 and some time ago I bought Orvis Wonderline Spey II for only $10. Rio MidSpey is about $50 and because it is longer and heavier its cut tip can be fished with heavier SH rod.

 

 

"Game fish are too valuable to be caught only once" 1939 Lee Wulff
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Mike I fish a skagit on my two hander exclusively with 0 problems. I could understand your argument if we were talking about a floating skagit head, but I fish the intermediate skagit extreme by sci angler. It casts like a dream. I actually had to weld 2 running lines together(airflo int) in order to accommodate the distance I am able to throw with it. Right now, I think these skagit int heads are best for the two handers in the salt. I can add an intermediate tip to the head for general purpose beach fishing or slap on a t-14 tip if I want to fish fast moving deep water like at the FH. For a floating line which I like to fish in the spring(out back) with smaller flies, I like the atlantic salmon shooting heads that sci angler puts out. They are basically a scandi taper on steroids. If i had more access to 13 and 14 wt outbounds, I would probably be fishing those.

The trouble with most fisherman is that they know the rules, but they do not know the game.
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Question was asked (I think by Mike O) if there are really SH FF that can cast better with a DH setup of 12ft (or so). Yeah, me for one. But let me explian - in 1988 I had a high spped encounter that left me with what are now 9 herniated disk between my neck and lumabr spine, and extensive accompanying nerve damage in the extemities - as a result, I cannot tolerate pressure on my thumbs for any significant length of time. 10+ years ago. I could double haul and shoot the entire fly line/running line 100 ft all day long with half a chicken wet bunker flyes on my Redington Nona-Ti 9 ft 12 wt. Now, I no longer have any "fast action' 9 ft rods (fastest is a 10 wt Sage RPLXi) and most of my sigle handers are 10 to 10 1/2 ft "switch cast type rods that only see action with fish breaking in front of me (in other words, no since a long time:(). But. I have two TFo trwo handers - 12 ft 6 in 6 wt pro series (discontinued) and 12 ft 12 wt. love them both, and under the right conditions, 125 ft no problem.

However, I do have one problem, and that will occur if I ever need a new line. Thing is, I love to greased-line swing flatwings in the surf, especially on those calm nights when striper sjump all over a redfin plug. As a matter of fact, I've never caught a stiper on a fly in the surf on anything other than a flatwing. Prblem is, you can't fish a flatwing right on anything other than a full floating Head, running line and leader. Can't find anything close in 510 grains, which is minimum that loads the 12 ft 12 wt. fortunately I have 2 Rio outbounds. For the 12 ft 6, I only have 1 AiRFLo Beach line, and I probably use that rod 50% of the time, more if you count backwaters.

Any suggestions?[/quote]

 

____________________________________

 

Yes,,, we have many floating lines that are 510gr and over in the Scandi head design.

Rio AFS are 31ft-40ft depending upon weight, sizes from 300gr to 640gr,,, long front taper design.

The head versions are also available as Intermediate lines.

The AFS is available as complete line AFS Outbound Integrated floating only.

 

A new line recently introduced by Airflo,,,, Rage line 360gr to 600gr in 30gr increments,,,, we have been testing this line with excellent results.

It is designed for windy conditions and large wind resistant flys.

These are shooting heads and require running/shooting lines.

 

Scientific Anglers has Scandi Extreme from 280gr to 680gr as heads.

 

Since we have a small business teaching Spey Casting, we are on the Pro programs with all of the line manuf. and use all of the above lines and many more Spey styles.

 

Regards,

FK

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Please explain how they are put together because I don't understand?

And can you tell more about Nick Curcione line system?

Esa

 

____________________________-

 

My thoughts are an extension of Nick Curcione's concept.

A Skagit Short with tips,,,, if you want an intermediate tip,,,, take an old Outbound intermediate tip line and cut off the front 20ft, make a loop at the cut.

Running line -- Skagit Short -- Outbound intermediate tip -- leader.

 

I have a box of old intermediate shooting heads in 11wt and 12wt,,, these will be cut up and attached to the Skagit Short lines as tips.

 

Nick's line system was developed at the Golden Gate Casting Club, in San Francisco.

He stated they have several hundred hours of experimenting for this development.

Nick also give credit to a fellow member who is a DH fanatic, Frank Chen.

They obviously tested Rio Outbound and similar lines as well as conventional Spey lines.

The end result was something I have never heard of in the past.

 

Running line (Rio Slick Shooter) -- Rio Skagit Short (20ft) -- Rio T-14 or T-17 (15ft) tip -- leader.

 

This is not an easy set up to OH cast,,,, I strongly suggest starting with 8ft of T-14, then 12ft, then move up to 12ft of T-17 and finally 15ft t-17.

The gradual steps will make casting easier to master.

 

Regards,

FK

 

 

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Question was asked (I think by Mike O) if there are really SH FF that can cast better with a DH setup of 12ft (or so). Yeah, me for one. But let me explian - in 1988 I had a high spped encounter that left me with what are now 9 herniated disk between my neck and lumabr spine, and extensive accompanying nerve damage in the extemities - as a result, I cannot tolerate pressure on my thumbs for any significant length of time. 10+ years ago. I could double haul and shoot the entire fly line/running line 100 ft all day long with half a chicken wet bunker flyes on my Redington Nona-Ti 9 ft 12 wt. Now, I no longer have any "fast action' 9 ft rods (fastest is a 10 wt Sage RPLXi) and most of my sigle handers are 10 to 10 1/2 ft "switch cast type rods that only see action with fish breaking in front of me (in other words, no since a long time:(). But. I have two TFo trwo handers - 12 ft 6 in 6 wt pro series (discontinued) and 12 ft 12 wt. love them both, and under the right conditions, 125 ft no problem.

However, I do have one problem, and that will occur if I ever need a new line. Thing is, I love to greased-line swing flatwings in the surf, especially on those calm nights when striper sjump all over a redfin plug. As a matter of fact, I've never caught a stiper on a fly in the surf on anything other than a flatwing. Prblem is, you can't fish a flatwing right on anything other than a full floating Head, running line and leader. Can't find anything close in 510 grains, which is minimum that loads the 12 ft 12 wt. fortunately I have 2 Rio outbounds. For the 12 ft 6, I only have 1 AiRFLo Beach line, and I probably use that rod 50% of the time, more if you count backwaters.

Any suggestions?

 

When reading any of Kenny's books its easy to believe you can only fish a flatwing on a floating line, but this is untrue. I fish primarily an intermediate in the surf with flatwings and have great success. Depending on the situation, there are times when I will dredge the bottom with a t14 tip and a flatwing 3 feet off the tip. Fishing big flatwings from a boat with heavy sinking lines at places like the rocks in may/june will produce large fly caught bass. Not sure where you are getting this idea that you can only fish them with floaters. In moving water and structure, I fish them as slow as possible allowing the fly to do the work. If I am constantly casting and stripping them with the rod under the shoulder they get trashed and defeat the purpose of the fly. I try to fish them as if it is a live bait... let it swim.

The trouble with most fisherman is that they know the rules, but they do not know the game.
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