Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
wjc

Overhang with integrated WF lines

Rate this topic

12 posts in this topic

I missed this thread from a couple months ago regarding long belly vs "short" heads. A good thread.

 

http://www.stripersonline.com/t/735174/9-weight-intermediates/30

 

Anyhow, recently, I bought a 550gr leviathan floating line for a possible trip to the Bahamas for marlin, which didn't happen. It was intended for a 'fly rod" of 7' 6" made for a guy who was after a bluefin record and is easily rod enough to surf cast 4 oz of lead.

 

So I tried it on my old RPLX Sage 12wt (rumored to be considerably more rod than a 12 wt) to see if it would handle the Leviathian and to compare the overhang with it as compared to a 12 wt Rio Tarpon floating. I had been using the tarpon taper for big sailfish flies and it is hard work, and I wanted to see what this other thing would do.

 

Casting a good distance, but not going all out for distance, and both false casting well within easily controlable range as well as shooting into the backcast from a pickup as I normally do, I came up with the following figures by marking the line where I held it for the shoot. I did not have a fly or fluff on either leader.

 

The Leviathian has a 30 foot head, and I was holding the line at 54.18 feet. Subtracting 8 feet from that leaves about 16 feet of overhang or about half the length of the taper.

 

With the 12 wt Tarpon line I was holding at 66.42 feet - minus 8' leave an approximate overhang of 19 feet. About half the length of the taper.

 

Just for grins and a cross check to see how accurate my feel of rod loaing was, I put on a Rio 12 tarpon sink tip and marked it at 66.08 feet. So I believe that my rod loading feel was pretty consistent.

 

I will order one of those line scales from Umpaqua before Christmas since I need one anyhow, and see what the total weight of each of those lines is to the overhang.

 

Although I haven't tried a shooting head since 1969 - finding them nothing but a PiTA and a genreal snarl of tangles - it occurred to me that this might be a good way to pre-determine what weight shooting heads fit what rod for the guys who do have the patience to **** with them. Or even to determine what line weight fits what rod best when changing tapers.

 

Cheers,

Jim

 

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A hundred foot engineer's tape I re-discovered with my story pole (also in feet, and tenths ). Easier to use with calculaltors.

 

I was curious as to the overhang with an integrated WF as compared to that of a regular shooting head with skinny running line and also with the short head as opposed to a longer one.

 

I had suspected that the shorter head would cast better with less proportional overhang than the longer head, but that turned out not to be the case.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jim,

If what you are doing, or a corollary to what you are doing, is cast the line out and then mark the head and line length, then weigh it to determine what weight (in grains I would assume) to determine loading weight for that rod/caster combination...that was/is a method that began about 50 years ago when heads were first introduced and someone decided to find out just how far they could push the envelope by trying lead core trolling line as the ultimate fast sinking head.

 

Since the lead core trolling line (Gudebrod) came in 100-300 yard spools the simplest way to get a "custom designed head for you and your rod" (and to replace a lost one in a few seconds) was to carry the bulk spool. When you needed another head you strung the lead core line through the guides and began false casting. When you had a length out that felt about right in terms of rod loadng you just clamped your hand down at that point, dropped the line on the ground or water, and CUT off your new head right at the rod tip top. Tie on a loop or the running line to the "butt" (actually either end, since there is no taper), the leader to the other end, and you have a "custom" head exactly right for you and your rod. Who CARES what the length i...or the weight is....if it is loading the rod correctly.

 

God I miss that stuff......like one misses the dangerous, adrenaline surging idiot acts of youth. It was not for the faint-hearted....or eye and head unprotected. It sure taught you to cast correctly....or duck/drop to the deck like after hearing the yell "INCOMING". One sudden errant gust and my weighted fly, pulled by the LC head, cut the eyeglass lens virtually into two pieces right off the face of my fishing partner....without touching eye or skin...and further bisected the rim of his felt fishing hat.

 

That is why, with the heavy stuff and big wind I unabashedly recommend a full face visored motorcycle helmet as appropriate fishing attire.

 

Peter Patricelli

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Peter,

 

.....cast the line out and then mark the head and line length, then weigh it to determine what weight (in grains I would assume) to determine loading weight for that rod/caster combination.

 

That's basically it, Peter. I'm trying to figure out how much total weight I like outside the tip for the rods I use most, as well as how the overhang varies for radically different tapers for what I'm after - basically ease of casting at distances I generally fish. The only time I ever hear overhang mentioned is with shooting heads, not the integrated lines I fish with.

 

I did not pick a good day for the test because wtih wind was 16-20 knots, and even though I was casting perpendicular to the wind., I may have carried a longer line with the 12 wt tarpon in calmer conditions, I was surprised at the results that the heavily forward-weighted Levethian cast well with an overhang of 54% of the head length whereas the rear-weighted tarpon line cast well with an overhang of 46% of the total head length.

 

I had expected the opposite result. So this leads me to the conclusiion (given those wind conditions) that taper configuration has far less to do with comfortable overhang than I had thought. I hear about the shooting head guys overhanging 6 feet or so as a general rule and thus assumed the short Leviathian head would not cast well with a longer overhang.

 

It will be interesting to see the comparison of the total weights of each line to my marks.

 

EDIT: Just read the specs on that Umpaqua scale and it only measures to 430 grains so it is worthless to me. Will have to find another one. Any suggestions?

 

Cheers,

Jim

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bill,

 

Since your post was considerably off topic, I figured it should have a separate reply.

 

I had an interior trim crew for many years, and we evolved a method of using, writing and describing lengths using regular feet/inch tapes to the 64th very quickly and accurately. We simply used only inches, 16ths. halfs of sixteeths (called halfs) and quarters of sixteenths (called "strongs" or "shys")

 

We used tapes with the smallest increment markings 1/16 apart because they are far enough apart that they are distinctily visable and easy to find. It is very easy to estimate the center between two of them, and nearly as easy split that estimated center in half to get to 64ths.

 

So, for instance, if a guy installing crown from scaffolding wanted a piece of crown molding 27 and 3/8 " long he would call to the cut man "27 and 6" or 27 and 6 sixteenths. If he wanted 27 and 13/32nds, he'd describe it exactly as he saw it on his tape and call out "27 and 6 and a half" or 27 and 6/16ths plus a half a sixteenth. If he wanted a piece 27 and 27/64ths he'd call it out as " 27 and 7 shy" , (27 and 7/16ths minus 1/64th).

 

 

So basically it was a refinement of the ancient "**** hair" system which, like quarks, always ended in "what color?". This old system was a very unreliable one and depended on experience totally separate from carpentry or any other measuring system known to man.

 

A 64th is less than 0.4 mm and plenty small enough for woodworking. Machine work is in thousandths and ten thousandths of an inch and already easy to use for computers and digital readouts which have large screens. So I was reluctant to switch to metric for woodworking since the increment lines are so close together as to be indistinguishable.

 

Besides, I think it's kind of cool to have a measuring system based upon how long an ancient British king's foot was as determined by the number of barleycorns it took in a line to reach from his heel to his longest toe.

 

Cheers,

Jim

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jim,

Regarding overhang....I think that the lighter (more MASS-less) the shooting line, the more critical the overhang issue becomes. It is in the nature of what is happening within the advancing loop as the forward cast progresses and turns over. It takes the mass with the front half of the loop being decelerated that PULLS on the rod, stretching the line between the tiptop and the loop to keep the static line UP in the air, and that flying mass in the top half also "pulls" up on the un-turned-over line to slow it's dropping. With light mono, too much overhang and the loop collapses almost instantly resulting in a crashing head.

 

If you use monofilament running line, the overhang gets very critical very fast.

 

I was very surprised by your finding of your preference in overhang, but given that it is an integrated line, the shooting line is heavier than I usually use when using heads.

 

When I read the whole thread about head lengths which you referenced, which I did not notice or jump in on at the time, I had lots of thoughts and notes but really don't want to re-dredge that thread at this point.

 

When weighing line I have used an ammunition reloading scale, more recently a digital scale. Weighing PART of a longer line, with that part atill attached, is somewhat un-satisfying because you are aware that the attachment almost always torques the weight up or down...but the amount seems ignore-able...if that is a word.

 

Peter Patricelli

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jim, regarding scales , EBayandseach for gold/silver scales. You will find a bunch. I got a small, battery operated scale that goes all the way to 880 grains for very short money and there are others, much more expensive that go higher. Just a suggestion

 

Pete Readel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Peter and Pete. Gold and ammo - both are becoming more valuable all the time the way this country is going. The scales for either sound like they could come in handy for more than fly lines soon. There are indeed a bunch of both on ebay for cheap. I'll check out the gun shop down here first.

 

Cheers,

Jim

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to register here in order to participate.

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.