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Winch

Ok I need some direction

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I want to reach out to some of the nature people. I think my idea about the Fish and Game Commission needing more information on what effects a forced overfishing of the striped bass population will have on Marine Mammal populations before they set these horrible management suggestions into law.

We may not love the tree huggers but the thought of thousands of warm bloodied creatures starving and dying should send some powerful waves of political clout. These fish that have been such an important food source are allowed to be removed by the move of a corporate farmer who lives in Beverly Hills should give us some help.

My problem is what groups should I reach out to to let them know about what could turn into an ecological nightmare.

So help me out. Who is out there?

Post them and I'll do the mailing to each of them.

Think seals, otters, Killer whales, and dolphin.

You can also add sharks to this list as I believe the salmon shark have also had to move over to striped bass as a food source.

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Winch... only other orgs I can think of is PETA & Sierra Club....I've contacted Stripers on line East coast asking for oppisition mail to the striper regs..Also Striper247. com...As i always assisted them in their issues...On our last striper fegs fight, we had a raffle from random letters picked..Nine of ten winners were fron east coast..Hoping we get same results this time too.Also contacted Roger Mammon of the California Striped bass Organization & he's sending the info to all members.. You may be on the right tract with the tree huggers as they're a pretty strong outfit...The more the merrier..Great idea....Jim:hi5:

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I do not know if they still exist but GreenPeace is the king of the waves when it comes to Ocean preservation especially the whales! But keep in mind they are not for fisherman either ;) Although when you think about it I would rather have fisherman than extinction of a certain species :)

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Hi,



 



I'm new here! I've been lurking for months. So what a subject to jump right in on. I would also suggest contacting the Surf Rider Foundation. Latitude 38 Magazine and Bay & Delta Yachtsman can help bring this to the attention of boaters and fisherman. (I hope mentioning publications isn't against the rules).



 



Did anyone mention Trout Unlimited? Nature Conservency?



 



I ran into a friend who is a wildlife biologist in the delta for a non-profit. He's not involved in this issue, so he didn't have much in the way of answers regarding how salmon could thrive if they face increased predation as the striper population declines, nor did he take a position ( not political, he just didn't know)  as to whether stripers are a key cause, the straw the broke the camel's back, or merely a scape goat. However, in the 10 plus years he's been in his position, he's witnessed a number of occasions in the delta where striper boils have hammered localized salmon smelt populations in various parts of the delta.


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Alfred Packer

Alfred Packer

Alfred Packer in prison.

 

T he only man in United States history ever convicted of a crime related to cannibalism lies buried in the southwest quarter of lot 65 in the Littleton Cemetery with a tombstone placed over his head at the expense of the U.S. government.

 

Alfred G. Packer was born in Pennsylvania in 1842. His chosen occupation of shoe-making was quickly interrupted by the outbreak of the Civil War. He enlisted in Company F, 16th U.S. Infantry in April of 1862, but his epilepsy resulted in a disability discharge the following December. Evidently liking army life, he soon reenlisted in an Iowa regiment, only to be discharged for the same reason. He then went West to try his hand in the gold fields and by 1873 he was working as a guide in the Utah and Colorado wilderness.

 

In November of that year, in Bingham Canyon, Utah, he was employed to lead twenty-one men seeking their fortunes in the gold fields near Breckenridge, Colorado. After an arduous three months in unrelenting winter weather, they located the camp of Ute Indian Chief Ouray, near present-day Montrose, and were provided food and shelter. Against the advice of Ouray, Packer and five other men continued their trek eastward, not wishing to lose further time waiting for a break in the weather.

 

Sixty-six days later, only Packer emerged from the mountains —looking more fit than he should. He first claimed that he had become separated from his companions in the blinding snow and had survived on rabbits and rose buds. But when confronted about having a lot of money and personal possessions of the missing men, he finally admitted his tale of cannibalism: how four of the men had died in turn from the extreme conditions and been eaten by the rest, and how he killed the fifth crazed companion, Shannon Bell, in self-defense before devouring him, as well. This might have been the end of it, but the five skeletons were soon discovered at a single campsite, not strung out along the trail as he had claimed, and Packer was charged with a single count of murdering Israel Swan, whose remains allegedly showed signs of a bitter hand-to-hand struggle. That very night, someone passed a key to Packer in his jail cell and he made his escape.

 

He remained at large for nine years, living in Arizona, Montana and Colorado under an assumed name —until someone recognized his laugh in a saloon in Fort Fetterman, Wyoming. He was arrested and returned to Colorado. At this point, driven by nine years of guilt, he made a second signed confession. What really happened, he now claimed, was that all six men were still alive, but had become too weak to continue. Packer left camp for several hours looking for the trail, and when he returned Shannon Bell had gone mad and killed the other four with a hatchet and was boiling the flesh from one of them. Upon Packer's approach to the fire, Bell charged with the hatchet and Packer was forced to shoot him twice in the belly. Only after several days did Packer resort to cannibalism to stay alive.

 

Having changed his story twice and with no corroboration available from the now-buried corpses, the jury convicted Packer of the single murder and he was sentenced to hang. Three years later the conviction was overturned, however, due to a legislative error made in the criminal codes when Colorado changed from a territory to a state in 1876.

 

Packer was tried again, charged with five counts of manslaughter and was convicted and sentenced to forty years in prison. He was remanded to the State Prison in Canon City in 1886. Due to the efforts of Denver Post editors and reporter Polly Pry, who were convinced of his innocence, he was paroled in 1901 and went to work as a guard at the Post.

 

He spent the final years of his life living in and around Littleton —on Harrison Avenue and on west Hampden. His last address was the Van Alstine ranch in Deer Creek Canyon. "He was described as a kindly man who would take children on his lap and tell them of his early days in the old west," according to Littleton historian Dave Hicks. He died April 24, 1907, evidently of liver and stomach troubles. Because he was a Civil War veteran, the military paid for the funeral and provided the tombstone, which reads: "Alfred Packer, Co. F, 16 U.S. Inf." His dying words, according to the Littleton Independent, were "I'm not guilty of the charge."

 

In recent years, forensic science has allowed a closer examination of the evidence. Exhumation of the remains of the Packer party and the recent discovery of Packer's revolver in the collection of the Museum of Western Colorado have tended to corroborate many of the details of Packer's second confession. No one will ever prove what really happened on "Cannibal Plateau" near present-day Lake City, but in a modern court of law Alfred might easily have established reasonable doubt.

 

Finally, what about the name "Alferd", whose spelling in itself has become a legend? It seems that during his army days he got a tattoo on his arm in which the artist misspelled his name. Taking a liking to the error, he oftentimes went by "Alferd" as something of a joke. On legal documents, however, he called himself and was referred to as "Alfred".

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No one has ever said that predation by both species to each other doesn't happen. But your "Biologist Friend" reeks of propaganda. Your one and only post to this website was to this thread?

As someone that has fished the delta for 42 years I can truthfully say I have NEVER seen or found a salmon smolt in a stripers belly. The only time it has been reported is where idiots like your unnamed "biologist" released hatchery fish in such a way that they were intercepted by opportunistic predators, such as seagulls, cormorants, halibut, seals and yes stripers.

That's the stupidity of people like your biologist.

As for your "biologist" actually seeing predation on wild stock or hatchery fish that were released properly. I doubt it very much. You see salmon smolt do not travel in confused masses that would be caught up in a striper frenzy. They are wary of predators and stay out of zones that the stripers follow. It's in their genetic code.

They move quickly from there native rivers to the sea. They do not linger in the Delta unless something LIKE THE CALIFORNIA AQUEDUCT SYSTEM SCREWS UP THE PROPER FLOW OF WATER.

Also if these are single events there is no way your so called biologist would be able to tell that a single striper was successful in going after a faster wild salmon smolt. Stripers are opportunistic feeders, they will go after the slowest, dumbest available food. Wild Salmon don't fit that criteria.

 

So I dispell what your so called nameless biologist supposedly told you. In fact I have a thousand nameless so called biologist that say just the opposite. ;)

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No one has ever said that predation by both species to each other doesn't happen. But your "Biologist Friend" reeks of propaganda. Your one and only post to this website was to this thread?

As someone that has fished the delta for 42 years I can truthfully say I have NEVER seen or found a salmon smolt in a stripers belly. The only time it has been reported is where idiots like your unnamed "biologist" released hatchery fish in such a way that they were intercepted by opportunistic predators, such as seagulls, cormorants, halibut, seals and yes stripers.

That's the stupidity of people like your biologist.

As for your "biologist" actually seeing predation on wild stock or hatchery fish that were released properly. I doubt it very much. You see salmon smolt do not travel in confused masses that would be caught up in a striper frenzy. They are wary of predators and stay out of zones that the stripers follow. It's in their genetic code.

They move quickly from there native rivers to the sea. They do not linger in the Delta unless something LIKE THE CALIFORNIA AQUEDUCT SYSTEM SCREWS UP THE PROPER FLOW OF WATER.

Also if these are single events there is no way your so called biologist would be able to tell that a single striper was successful in going after a faster wild salmon smolt. Stripers are opportunistic feeders, they will go after the slowest, dumbest available food. Wild Salmon don't fit that criteria.

So I dispell what your so called nameless biologist supposedly told you. In fact I have a thousand nameless so called biologist that say just the opposite. ;) [/quote

 

Well put winch!...........These two species co-existed fine for around a century.Now ,all of a sudden,It's the stripers fault the salmon numbers are down?Come on!

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I choose A. P. because I spent a lot of years fishing the streams that run by the supposed scene of the crime in Lake City. I always heard it called "Dead Man's Gulch" Frankly, I kinda figured he did it. We didn't have all the new forensic evidence when we were learning this in 7th grade.



 



I joined this forum because I 1.) I've learned a hell of a lot from people like you, Winch. 2.) I want to keep the West Coast striper fishery healthy and productive for our, our children's, and future generation's enjoyment.



 



The title of this post is " Ok I need some direction" Maybe it was bad timing, but I joined at this time because I honestly thought I had some ideas to help the fight.  I didn't join to stir things up. You clearly know the questions to ask, I clearly don't. While I don't doubt my friend's observations, you clearly have the knowledge and experience to call B--- Sh--! I'm really glad there are other highly informed points of view that make it clear the striper is the scape goat here.



 



 



 



 


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I choose A. P. because I spent a lot of years fishing the streams that run by the supposed scene of the crime in Lake City. I always heard it called "Dead Man's Gulch" Frankly, I kinda figured he did it. We didn't have all the new forensic evidence when we were learning this in 7th grade.

 

I joined this forum because I 1.) I've learned a hell of a lot from people like you, Winch. 2.) I want to keep the West Coast striper fishery healthy and productive for our, our children's, and future generation's enjoyment.

 

The title of this post is " Ok I need some direction" Maybe it was bad timing, but I joined at this time because I honestly thought I had some ideas to help the fight.  I didn't join to stir things up. You clearly know the questions to ask, I clearly don't. While I don't doubt my friend's observations, you clearly have the knowledge and experience to call B--- Sh--! I'm really glad there are other highly informed points of view that make it clear the striper is the scape goat here.

 

 

 

 

 

Hey no problem Alferd. The thread is about who should we contact in the marine mammal, birds and shark protection business to let them know what problems may arise from removing a food source for all these species. No study has been done considering if this could turn into an ecological disaster for other species that now depend on stripers as a food source. A push in this direction might give us more leverage over any other change in the law.

As for your pick of name....... I hate to say it but I knew who he was as soon as I saw the name. Laughed my ass off.

Anyway get into some of the other threads, talk to and make some friends of the easters. I would invite you to one of our get to gathers but since you ate :shock: the last big group you went out with I'm a little hesitant. ;)

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