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What the heck..let's talk two handed rods

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Jim DE

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I have been fishing with two-handed rods for quite a number of years in the salt. I saw a TV show where they were using these rods making 100' single spey casts and overhead casts for salmon on a river in some scandinavian country. I watched this show and figured this set-up would be a perfect way to fish Turkey Point, Md from shore at a particular spot where there is a fish holding hole about 120' from shore but the backcast to reach this distance was impossible due to the surrounding.

 

I went on a search for the longest stongest heaviest line weight two hander I could find. Fly shops were useless in researching these rods locally because no one was using them in the salt. I had to do my own search and contacted many of the top rod companies in the country. I finally decided on the 1611 T&T being as I liked my 1 handed T & T's and it was one of the rods that Jim Vincent recommended for my application. I spent my money and took the step of faith into two handed fly rodding never even casting one.

 

It arrived and I ordered a Bauer M-7 that was just introduced as the largest diameter reel available. On this reel I mounted a Rio Windcutter Interchangeable line and went out fishing. Well the set-up worked perfectly at Turkey Point and I was sold lock stock and barrel on two handers.

 

As the season progressed I ventured out front in the ocean. I quickly realized that the Rio line wasn't the best choice where surf was present. Back to the drawing board I went...and changed the line to a shooting head system. That was the ticket and my distance near doubled once I cut a DT spey line down to the optimal length for my casting and rod.

 

From this point on a two handed rod was in my hands 99% of the time and I got better and better with it. Realizing I had had a single handed rod in my hand for the previous 25 years or so.

 

The advantages of these rods quickly became obvious. Distance with minimal effort first, line control, hooksets, the fly in the water longer, 100' casts without a backcast, could fish tighter more crowded areas, line speed, close in line drop fishing from jetties, wind became a non issue, fly size or bulk also became a so what item, it just was far more fun for me with far less effort.

 

As time went on I picked up other two handed rods all of which were shorter and lighter in line weight from my first. But, the longer I fished these rods the more I returned to the 1611.

 

Why? Well heres my take......the advantage I see in two handed rods are their length. A longer rod and a shorter rod cast with the identical hand speed the longer rods tip will always be traveling a greater distance than the short one meaning it is having to travel faster over the same time period. Faster rod tip meant faster line speed which meant greater force applied to accelerate the fly out against the environment. To me there is no reason to develop short two handed rods for this reason. You are then developing a rod whos rod tip speed is close to a one handed 9-10' rod but they can double haul to accelerate their line and a two hander can't. This makes a 11' two handed rod and a 10' one handed rod nearly identical in line speed. Hard to sell the two handed advantage to a one handed experienced caster who is out reaching you on every cast when side by side.

 

There are to me some comfort and other advantages from casting two handed rods that one handed rods don't have so these may be points to consider. I feel that the two handed rods are yet another tool in the fly rodders arsenal...not a replacement. This is why I suggest prospective two handed rod users to go as long, as fast an action, and as high a line weight as they can find so that it is the goto rod that will keep you out fishing when the other won't. I hate to have conditions dictate whether I can fly fish or not.

 

Once they get the long stick they will then fish it more and get to experience ALL the advantages these rods offer their users. Just my take on two handers and I know it is not the trend the industry is pushing currently....they are making what I call transitional two handed rods that are a compromise so the one handed majority will have a simular feel rather than learning a completely new tool which is easier to sell.

 

If you are thinking about entering two handed fly fishing please consider the points made above......I have nothing to gain either way but I have walked this path for a long time and have formed these opinions on the water and would like others to avoid the pitfalls I have had to deal with.

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Jim,

 

Thankyou for your advice. I have been looking at the TFO 1212 as an entry level 2 hander. Let me try to understand what you are saying. Is it better, for a beginner to start with a rod longer than a 12 feet to learn? If so, what length would you recommend? TFO also sells a 15 footer, would you think that is a better choice? I've been looking mainly at TFO do to the price.

 

Thanks again Jim

Tight Lines
Gary B
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Gary, When you enter into two handed fly rodding in the salt my opinion is that you should select a rod that maximizes the strengths of two handed overhead fly rodding. The greatest advantage in using a two handed rod is it's superior line speed which is a direct result of rod length and action.

 

Just like in golf drivers have the longest shafts which deliver the fastest head speed and the most energy is transferred to the ball. The longer the rod the faster the line speed all things being equal.

 

To answer your question.....I see no disadvantage learning to two hand cast on a 16'er in fact there are advantages. But, I must add don't just by the longest rod you can find unless it has a very fast action. You do not want a"slow", "spey" or "traditional" action rod for saltwater two handed fly rodding. You will want the action listed as "fast" or one manufacturer calls it "european" and another classifies it as "scandinavian" action rods.

 

Even today some 10-15 years since I got involved in two handed rods the buyer still needs to make a "leap of faith" so to speak ordering and recieving it sight unseen unless you live close to a very large fly shop that handles two handed rods like "Hunters" or "The Fly Shop".

 

Gary.....I can recommend the T&T's I own and have cast a few Loomis and Sage two handers that would work but that is as far as I can go. I haven't seen the TFO's non the less casted one.

 

Sorry I can't assist you more in that area. But I will suggest getting a rod rated for 11wt or greater for this application from the beach.

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The idea of higher line speed with a greater length in rod brings up more controversy on beach fishing than being pro abortion in a Catholic church. However, I agree with Jim in every respect of what he says. Mathematically it is impossible to prove with any accuracy. My dad is a civil engineer and I asked him about calculating line speed. He went into some tirade about third level quadratic equations that have to be re-calculated with each millisecond that goes by and there are the variables of torsion, flex, modular stress, etc. He final ended up telling me it would take weeks to do the math. He knew this because he was professor emeritus at U of W engineering department and had a problem one time for his students to solve involving something a lot simpler to figure out. At what point would a flag pole break when X amount of wind was blowing on it. Which started another litany about the variables involved in that. Never ask an engineer a simple question. You will never get one back.

 

I believe it can be easily demonstrated with simple math, but will not be accurate. We also have to remove all the variables like wind resistance, flex of the rod under load, ect. So I am going to use a magical caster named Simon Gawesworth. Simon swears he will cast several rods of differing lengths at the same speed. Simon's rods will remain as straight as laser beams with no line attached. He will do this in a complete vacuum with the gravity turned off. There, are you satisfied dad? He wont be though.

 

Anyway, Simon moves through the 10 and 2 o'clock positions in one second on an 8, 10, 12, 14, 16 and 18 foot rod. Rod tip speeds are as follows:

 

8'=16.74 feet per second or 11 mph.

10'=20.93 feet per second or 14 mph.

12'=25.12 feet per second or 17 mph

14'=29.30 feet per second or 20 mph.

16'=33.49 feet per second or 23 mph.

18'=37.68 feet per second or 26 mph

 

I have 9 Spey rods and only one is suitable for overheading off the beach. It is a 13 footer. I will be looking for a 15 footer over the next couple of months for the beach. I will be looking at Bob Meiser's new line and the new G Loomis rods. Some of these may fit the bill as a few are designed for this type of work. Otherwise, I'm back to T&T. The other alternative is to go to Europe and try the rods there. Even though some may be made here, we will never see them until there is more of a market I am told. I have to cast a rod before I buy.

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Good calculations! Interesting to see the numbers. Still, through all of this (and I do agree with Jim DE) no one has factored in the increase in effort needed as the rod gets longer. Moving longer, heavier rod through same distance at same speed requires corresponding increase in effort. (energy/force, for Mattzoid's dad).

 

Mattzoid, maybe your dad could work us a up a quick graph on this. I would prefer if he could convert it to how many Pop-Tarts I would have to eat to use a 16 footer versus a 14. Let's assume the same theoretical ideal condiditions- and also assume they are Choclate Frosted Pop Tarts for the enrgy-calories conversion. smile.gif

 

Kidding aside - at some point in rod length it is going to get tough to throw - is this 20ft? 18? I don't know - but the increased weight, length (leverage of the force) is gonna come into play. Obviously this is different for everyone, just like with one-handed rods, but it would be interesting to think about where that pratical limit is.

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Dave,

 

I thought about that too. Instead of asking my dad what he thought would be the absolute longest rod a person could throw, I just looked at the most popular Spey rods (Besides, dad charges 150 bucks an hour). They range from 12 to 18 feet. I believe the most popular length is 14 feet to 15 feet because of weight and effort needed to Spey cast. Some of the distance casters use 17 and 18 footers, but I would think beyond that, one would be fighting the rod more than you would be line and distance. That is why I think 15 feet would be ideal for a useful overhead cast. My math works the other way too. A person doesn't have to move a rod tip at 26 mph with an 18 foot rod. He could cast 11 mph with the same effort as a 8 foot rod. But remember, my math is only a very rough estimate and is only used to provide the vaguest picture.

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Wish I had time to answer this thread properly...

 

Jim has been using the 2-hander in the salt longer than anyone I know of, but I disagree with him on the main point that longer is necessarily better.

 

Casting is only part of the equation. Maybe less than 10% of your time on the beach is spent casting, the other 90% is fishing. During the fishing part, I find really long rods to be more cumbersome than I like.

 

The reason I have settled on the 12' length is that it is the shortest length rod with which I can cast as much line as I can manage. In all of my experiments with rods under 12', I found that I could actually cast further with one-hand and a double-haul, than I could with two-hands, ( Although one-handers over 10' get very difficult for me to cast.)

 

In situations where I really need more distance, or the surf gets too big for a 12, I use a 14' 9-weight which will cast the same lines as the 1212.

 

I have never found a 15' rod that would balance well for a one-handed retrieve with less than about a pound of reel on it.

 

I would encourage anyone to try rods of different lengths and get what feels comfortable to you, but remember, working the rod on the beach is different from casting them in the parking lot.

 

And try not to invest too much $$ in your first rod.

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After 35 years of intense flyfishing the surf, I am STILL looking for a reason to use a two-hander! All your calculations prove nothing. Two-handers are fine and very effective tools for the surf, BUT the single hander is extremely effective too. I have fished in the surf from Cape Cod to N.C. without ever wanting a two-hander. I love to cast them but I feel they are MORE tireing and simply not as comfortable. Why cast a two-hander 12 wt. with a forty four foot head when one could use a single hand eight wt. rod and cast 80 ft. effortlessly? That is plenty of distance in the surf to be effective. So much is made of mending lines with a two-hander. How well can you mend running line or sinking line? What about big flies..? Here along the Jersey coast, a fly of 7 inches is about the largest one generally needs. Super large flies as full sized bunker imitations are rarely the ticket. Wind? When the wind is in my face, the fish are at my feet! No problem, as a single handed fly rod can perform very well. So where and when do I need this extra $750+ investment? Surely the two-handers are fun to learn and use and can be fished effectively but don't go there because you can't do it with a single hander. That is the wrong reason. This is my concern whenever this subject comes up. Do it because you are curiuos or would like to, then you're on the right track. No matter what the claims are of distance and ease of learning, it will still take practice and more practice. Two-handers offer another way to flyfish and any flyfisherman should give it a try. Hopefully you can find someone with a 2hndr. to try it first before you buy. They offer possibilities NOT promises. You will have to work at it to reach its potential. Beware when claims of how good these rods are and how ineffective single handers are. They both do a great job. I am NOT against 2-hndrs., just choices made looking for a silver bullet. Can't cast into the wind, get a 2-hndr. Can't mend lines, get a 2-hndr. Can't get the distance needed, get a 2-hndr. Can't cast big flies, get a 2-hndr. I wish it was that easy! Single handed rods CAN do all that too, and with ease. PRACTICE is the only answer! Both styles will force you to practice to get good at it. Too often it has been made to look like it will work "right out of the box". Be cautious and keep it all in proper perspective as it pertains to YOU!

BobPop

PS. 20 fter. huh Jim? Just what you need for that Alvey reel. Get up here soon. >===== wink.gif

BobPop
>=====(*>
POP FLEYES
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I tried a couple of two-handers last year, a 12 ft 8wt and a 15ft 10-11. I liked them, they were fun to cast, was able to get some extra distance with them. But I don't own them anymore. When it came down to it I didn't see that much of an advantage for everyday use. Line mending with shooting heads is not possible or practical. The casting larger fly advantage - not that big of a deal. If you tie a large fly (10"+) properly it really doesn't kill distance that badly anyway. Wind isn't really an issue for me with single handed fly rods. If I can't fish with a one hander, then it is too windy for fly tackle period. They make a nice toy, but weren't for me.

ASMFC - Destroying public resources and fisheries one stock at a time since 1942.

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Excellent discussion.......

 

hi Jay long time! I rarely ever single hand strip a retrieve even with a single handed rod. I will nearly always tuck the rod under my arm and use a two handed retrieve. 12-14-16-24'ers would all be nearly the same in feel. As far as cumbersome maybe if one is used to a 9'er but if you are a OBX surf fisherman doing 8nbait on the point and have fished that equipment it would feel like a toy. Feeling is subjective and depends on what one considers normal.

 

Increased force as the length and weight increases.....could be a valid point. But, with todays graphites and giudes weight is far less of an issue than it was say in the 60's and in Joe Brooks book Fly Fishing he has a picture of a guy using a 18'er in South America. That had to be a beast in fiberglass. I do know I feel no leverage differences between a 12'er and a 16'er of the same line weight...shoot its push-pull as much as swing.

 

7" flies are about max.......could be that no one can fish anything larger with thier equipment in our conditions to prove if flies over 10" would be effective or not. I know that size and larger baitfish are present.

 

More practice......not to get just 100'......200' yes. I have taken small kids and in 15 minute have had them casting 100' with the 16'er and they had never cast any kind of rod.

 

Bob.....I'm not promoting the Alvey type reel because I really feel it is an abomination wink.gif and I won't post my distances with it on the 16'er using a shooting head and 50lb power pro shooting line but it was scary how far it goes with no shooting basket or basket line management to deal with. I do know what would make that system work flawlessly but I will take those suggestions to the grave. Even I don't want to see fly fishing progress in that direction. wink.gif

 

Mattzoid....great calculations! I assume this is with rods of all the same action ie fast.

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I don't mean to imply that a two hander can out do a single hander. I've seen people like Steve Choate cast a single handed rod farther than I could a Spey rod. I can forget about ever trying to catch him on a Spey rod at 150 feet. My choice for a two hander on the salt is a simple one. I am a lazy bastard. Also, 80 feet with a single hander is not a problem for me, but degeneration of my lower vertebra is. I can only fish for a couple hours with a single hander or all day with my two hander. I believe your choice is a personal one and should not be made without several days of casting on the rod you might buy. And before you buy that rod, try another one for a couple days.

 

The other draw for me on this is that it is fun, but I do have about two years of practice on the west coast. I have no clue about the east coast and what works over there. The only thing I know for sure about the east coast is that Alex Rodriguez still can't get into the world series.

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I have flyfished the beach for 10 years and last winter bought a CND two handed rod (11' 1") on a whim really more for fun and maybe just to try something diffent. I have fished it on and off during the year and mostly on this fall. I have about 25 beach days on it this year. I have no urge to convince people how fish or debate what is the best method to fish. I really don't care how people fish.

Just thought I would include on honest oppion with n o BS or preaching. Just an average guy open minded guy that tried.

1)This is not a spey rod nor do I know how to spey cast nor do I feel spey casting really is needed.

This rod is made to use two hands on an overhead cast.

2) I never really hear anyone mention the fact that the main learning curve was dealing with the release of the line with the right hand. (casting hand) not the left. This is huge difference! and the main part of the learning curve for me.

3)There is a practice that is required and especially a big of effort to learn how to releas e the line with the finger against the rod. The mechanics of the cast are the same.

4)I am using a 40 ft head and a running line. Once I learned how to get the head out with one or two false casts (often using one hand but this rod is light and short eonugh to do that) It goes much farther than my one handed rod! I disagree with Bob P in that I could practice for ever and not get this kind of distance with an 8wt. I do not claim to be an excellent caster but after a few sessions with the rod there is no comparision.

5)Backhanded casting is much easier and less effort than with the one hander.

6)Two handed casting at least by me is not pretty as there is water slap and the line hits the water more when I get out the head.

7)Two handing is not easy for me at night. I cannot get feel and seeing the line helps.

8)Even though it is a 11 wt It is not that fatiging to fish.

8)It is a tool but a fun one. Just be patient in the beginning.

9)It does not replace my one hander but in the wind and when I want to get out there I use it and enjoy fishing it .

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BobPop- and all:

 

For me, and I suspect many other two-handed rod users, going in that direction wasn't because of a search to correct a problem. I feel it was a natural progression into another realm of the sport I love. I would never get rid of any of my favorite single-handed rods - and I still do use them. There is no more "intimate" connection with the line and fly than with a good actioned single-handed rod. But for the last two years I have enjoyed experimenting with the two-handers. And there are definitely some things that they do better - as in "more easily" than single handers. It's not judgemental to say it.

I for one would never recommend a two-hander to someone that was learning to fly fish. For the same reasons I would tell someone to learn acoustic guitar before trying to play an electric. Learn the fundamentals on which the sport is based and you will have a much better appreciation of it. After that, experimentation is a great part of pursuing our passions. And Bob, I know that you- the Epoxy fly King - appreciate that). smile.gif

 

For me, I am glad to see people flyfishing no matter how many hands they have on their rod.

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Great thread, and many have said what I was going to say. I tried out a two hander for the first time this season, largely because I got a good deal on one, so it was not an insane financial commitment. They are fun, plain and simple, and I will use them more and more, but as Pungo, BobPop and others have said, they are not silver bullets either. First, a lot of people who have promoted them have made it sound as if you pick up these things and start doubling your casting distance and efficiency in 15 minutes. Not true, for me anyway. First, as Pungo says, you have to learn to manage the line handling aspect and release/shooting line with right hand fingers. Second, it's REALLY easy to open up your loop too much with a long rod. Third, matching lines to these rods is trickier than a one-hander. They are fussier, require more grains, etc. Most important, there is a real learning curve here, even for those of us who've been fishing one-handers for a long time. The casting principles are the same -- abrupt speed-up-and stop, don't overpower, etc. -- but the mechanics are a little different when two hands hold the rod.

On balance, I really like my two hander, and I fished it in situations where I didn't even need it, like some CC Bayside flats where an 8 weight would have been fine. I did so because it was fun and because you do pick up real distance. But, if you go this route, expect some frustrations at first and don't believe it corrects casting shortcomings. It requires no less (or more) expertise to cast properly. If it was such a magic answer to all casting ills, it probably wouldn't be as fun anyway.

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I don't know....I found the casting mechanics, and everyone I have shown to cast, of the right finger release a snap......(far easier than coordinating two hands, opposite motions to double haul a one hander)...very simular to casting a fixed spool reel. Yeah sometimes it slips but not a big problem to overcome and correct.

 

Do I still cast one handed rods? Of course! But it is because I have had decades with these rods in hand.......not because they are easier to cast or more fun or more effective from the sand....it's more just because I like to stay in tune with them, I have a ton of money wrapped up in them frown.gif , and because I can wink.gif . Serious feet in the sand fishing I will almost always have a two hander in hand.

 

I have used them off jetties, docks, tributaries, inlets, you name it and have yet to feel disadvantaged with a two handed rod. Quite the contrary! Landing large fish from the rocks with a 16'er took some non-orthodox methods and equipment set-ups but once I worked through them it became a non-issue.

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