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Thresher1

The Oil Spill Sand Berms

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Do these strike anyone else as a colossal waste of time, resources and $$$?

 

I understand the outrage and the emotional need to want to do something - anything.

 

However, to me doing something just for the sake of doing something is shortsighted and foolish.

 

My guess is that waves and tidal action will whisk these berms away in short order.

 

It's sad that one of the "best" ideas so far involves building giant sand castles in the water.

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very true. however it will make people feel better of we waste collosal amounts on $$$ on futile attempts to stop the inevitable.

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View PostDo these strike anyone else as a colossal waste of time, resources and $$$?

 

I understand the outrage and the emotional need to want to do something - anything.

 

However, to me doing something just for the sake of doing something is shortsighted and foolish.

 

My guess is that waves and tidal action will whisk these berms away in short order.

 

It's sad that one of the "best" ideas so far involves building giant sand castles in the water.

 

 

No they are not a waste. It's actually very easy to clean oil off of sand beaches and berms such as these. These berms are designed to protect the wetlands where clean up is 100X more difficult and expensive. The wetlands are also vital to the survival of most species of fish and animals in the area.

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"However, to me doing something just for the sake of doing something is shortsighted and foolish." Yes

 

"My guess is that waves and tidal action will whisk these berms away in short order. " BIG YES

 

"It's sad that one of the "best" ideas so far involves building giant sand castles in the water."

 

Yup.

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View Post"However, to me doing something just for the sake of doing something is shortsighted and foolish." Yes

 

 

"My guess is that waves and tidal action will whisk these berms away in short order. " BIG YES

 

 

"It's sad that one of the "best" ideas so far involves building giant sand castles in the water."

 

 

Yup.

 

You are aware of the huge difference in Tidal Flows between the North East and the Gulf of Mexico, right?cwm15.gifcwm15.gif

 

 

Oh heck, here's the Tide Charts for the same two Days for Boston, Ma, and Brenton Islands, La. I even made it easier, look at the 'Red' parts.......wink.gif

 

 

Tide Chart for Breton Islands, Louisiana

 

 

2010-06-15 05:56 CDT Sunrise

 

 

2010-06-15 09:15 CDT Moonrise

 

 

2010-06-15 13:06 CDT 1.77 feet High Tide

 

 

2010-06-15 19:58 CDT Sunset

 

 

2010-06-15 22:54 CDT Moonset

 

 

2010-06-16 00:14 CDT -0.29 feet Low Tide

 

 

2010-06-16 05:56 CDT Sunrise

 

 

2010-06-16 10:23 CDT Moonrise

 

 

2010-06-16 13:48 CDT 1.51 feet High Tide

 

 

2010-06-16 19:58 CDT Sunset

 

 

2010-06-16 23:33 CDT Moonset

 

 

Tide Chart for Boston, Massachusetts

 

 

2010-06-15 01:39 EDT 11.51 feet High Tide

 

 

2010-06-15 05:06 EDT Sunrise

 

 

2010-06-15 08:06 EDT -1.15 feet Low Tide

 

 

2010-06-15 08:34 EDT Moonrise

 

 

2010-06-15 14:21 EDT 10.11 feet High Tide

 

 

2010-06-15 20:20 EDT 0.10 feet Low Tide

 

 

2010-06-15 20:22 EDT Sunset

 

 

2010-06-15 23:00 EDT Moonset

 

 

2010-06-16 02:31 EDT 11.40 feet High Tide

 

 

2010-06-16 05:06 EDT Sunrise

 

 

2010-06-16 08:56 EDT -1.09 feet Low Tide

 

 

2010-06-16 09:50 EDT Moonrise

 

 

2010-06-16 15:13 EDT 10.27 feet High Tide

 

 

2010-06-16 20:23 EDT Sunset

 

 

2010-06-16 21:14 EDT 0.09 feet Low Tide

 

 

2010-06-16 23:30 EDT Moonset

 

 

Notice the 'difference' yet?cwm33.gifcwm33.gifbeers.gif

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View PostYou are aware of the huge difference in Tidal Flows between the North East and the Gulf of Mexico, right?cwm15.gifcwm15.gif

 

 

Very much so.

 

Certainly microtidal in the gulf.

I should have clarified my point, as I am more concerned with wave/storm erosion of these berms.

 

I actually had a good discussion about this with RegD in another thread, but I am not going to rehash it all here. My objection to these berms far exceed just the erosion of these berms as soon as construction begins....

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View Postwhat's the prevailing breeze in the Gulf?

 

 

a SE breeze in the gulf has a lot more fetch than one in LIS or Boston harbor

 

Simple Chart/map:

 

 

525

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From another thread. (Posted by me, so cut-pasted myself)

 

Actually, I can't believe how much play this idea has gotten... the reason they need to study and or NOT DO THIS (and this is just a few off my head as a geologist)

 

1. There is NOT a huge surplus of sand down there to begin with, hence the severely eroding barrier islands. Just trying to find enough sand will be an issue

 

2. Dig the holes to get the sand in the wrong spot, and you can and will severely increase erosion of the marsh/existing barrier islands in spots, often called erosional hot spots, and they do exist, naturally and from dredging elsewhere on the gulf and Atlantic coast. This will end up causing MORE impact for who knows how long down the road.

 

3. After the fact you would have MILLIONS of cubic yards of contaminated sand to deal with, in addition to the oil in the marsh now, and oil will continue to get into the marsh

 

4. it will take MONTHS to build. the time and effort will be better spend intercepting and cleaning up the oil not trying to build a giant 'berm' (they are actually building small barrier islands, not berms)

 

5. It is foolish to think this is a catch all. all his talk about blocking the oil is BS. it will go over it, the berms will erode, the oil will still be transported, and what oil sits in the sand (sand is permeable after all) will just get moved onshore if there is a hurricane. Clean as much up and GET IT OUT of the ecosystem as quickly as possible, period!

 

clean it as best you can, contain all you can, but don't waste the time, money and effort on a BS design...

 

will parts of the marsh die, is that awful, yes! but will some, probably high percentage of it come back, yes! Or at least on par with the typical amount of marsh erosion down there due to storms (sea level rise does not cause erosion)

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View PostFrom another thread. (Posted by me, so cut-pasted myself)

 

 

Actually, I can't believe how much play this idea has gotten... the reason they need to study and or NOT DO THIS (and this is just a few off my head as a geologist)

 

 

1. There is NOT a huge surplus of sand down there to begin with, hence the severely eroding barrier islands. Just trying to find enough sand will be an issue

 

 

2. Dig the holes to get the sand in the wrong spot, and you can and will severely increase erosion of the marsh/existing barrier islands in spots, often called erosional hot spots, and they do exist, naturally and from dredging elsewhere on the gulf and Atlantic coast. This will end up causing MORE impact for who knows how long down the road.

 

 

3. After the fact you would have MILLIONS of cubic yards of contaminated sand to deal with, in addition to the oil in the marsh now, and oil will continue to get into the marsh

 

 

4. it will take MONTHS to build. the time and effort will be better spend intercepting and cleaning up the oil not trying to build a giant 'berm' (they are actually building small barrier islands, not berms)

 

 

5. It is foolish to think this is a catch all. all his talk about blocking the oil is BS. it will go over it, the berms will erode, the oil will still be transported, and what oil sits in the sand (sand is permeable after all) will just get moved onshore if there is a hurricane. Clean as much up and GET IT OUT of the ecosystem as quickly as possible, period!

 

 

clean it as best you can, contain all you can, but don't waste the time, money and effort on a BS design...

 

 

will parts of the marsh die, is that awful, yes! but will some, probably high percentage of it come back, yes! Or at least on par with the typical amount of marsh erosion down there due to storms (sea level rise does not cause erosion)

 

what the hell do you know about sand and beach errosion anyway? why dont you leave this topic to professionals. beatin.gifhighfive.gifcwm27.gif

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View PostFrom another thread. (Posted by me, so cut-pasted myself)

 

Actually, I can't believe how much play this idea has gotten... the reason they need to study and or NOT DO THIS (and this is just a few off my head as a geologist)

 

1. There is NOT a huge surplus of sand down there to begin with, hence the severely eroding barrier islands. Just trying to find enough sand will be an issue

 

2. Dig the holes to get the sand in the wrong spot, and you can and will severely increase erosion of the marsh/existing barrier islands in spots, often called erosional hot spots, and they do exist, naturally and from dredging elsewhere on the gulf and Atlantic coast. This will end up causing MORE impact for who knows how long down the road.

 

3. After the fact you would have MILLIONS of cubic yards of contaminated sand to deal with, in addition to the oil in the marsh now, and oil will continue to get into the marsh

 

4. it will take MONTHS to build. the time and effort will be better spend intercepting and cleaning up the oil not trying to build a giant 'berm' (they are actually building small barrier islands, not berms)

 

5. It is foolish to think this is a catch all. all his talk about blocking the oil is BS. it will go over it, the berms will erode, the oil will still be transported, and what oil sits in the sand (sand is permeable after all) will just get moved onshore if there is a hurricane. Clean as much up and GET IT OUT of the ecosystem as quickly as possible, period!

 

clean it as best you can, contain all you can, but don't waste the time, money and effort on a BS design...

 

will parts of the marsh die, is that awful, yes! but will some, probably high percentage of it come back, yes! Or at least on par with the typical amount of marsh erosion down there due to storms (sea level rise does not cause erosion)

 

 

I don't know enough about this subject to comment other than the Dutch seem to have used these techniques with success in the past.

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My guess is there are just many experts in favor of the berms are there are against it. In any case it's less of a waste of time then sitting back doing nothing.

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View PostMy guess is there are just many experts in favor of the berms are there are against it. In any case it's less of a waste of time then sitting back doing nothing.

 

Actually, I have yet to see an expert come out in favor of it. Louisiana has some of the brightest coastal geologists around, and if they were in support of it, I think Jihndal would be trotting them out to the press w/ his nifty pfd....

 

Just because it is less of a waste of time doesn;t mean it is a good idea. put all the barges and personal he would be needing to run skimmers, booms, Costner's pumps, whatever.... the berms will do more long-term harm than good.

 

As far as dropping the sand on the oil (leak) I was reading an energy industry blog that I now can't find, and the author seemed to think that there was a strong feeling in the industry, even pre top-kill that any top down solution was a waste of time....

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