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Capt.Castafly

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Is it me or is this just weird?

 

I usually tie an improved clinch knot for all my flies up to 20 lbs test. It seems that during the early months of the season some of the knots get undone. This happens while playing fish.

 

Now in warmer weather the same tying technique is used but now it works perfectly. In most cases flouracarbon is the leader material. Every time the knots gets lubricated while tightening. Same procedure for all.

 

Does anyone else have had similar experiences? Does higher temperature have any effect on knot tying making the material more limp or slippery to chinch?

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I quilt using that knot a long time ago and use either the palomar, doubled uni or trilene now depending on how dark it is and whether I remembered my reading glasses or not. I like the trilene the least because it is the easiest to burn the line and the hardest to tighten - but it uses up very little tippet material and is easier for me to tie in the dark.

 

I have had too many problems in the past with the improved cinch knot, including slipping. And I am sure they slip worse in colder weather. In the keys they just break too easy.

 

Cheers,

Jim

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Oh, ho. Now this is interesting. How many people have noted a difference in the reliability of a given knot in different temperatures?

 

Could it be that some knots are just easier to tie when your fingers are cold then others?

 

Generally speaking, one complaint I have with fluorocarbon is that it knots poorly, as compared to mono.

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View PostOh, ho. Now this is interesting. How many people have noted a difference in the reliability of a given knot in different temperatures?

 

Could it be that some knots are just easier to tie when your fingers are cold then others?

 

Generally speaking, one complaint I have with fluorocarbon is that it knots poorly, as compared to mono.

 

Brian,

Do you find it cinches up with a lot of kinetic friction, all jerky like?

I have a great knot lubricant for you folks!

Cheap for the size of the bottle and water soluble so it washes off the line easily, you just have to decant it into a smaller bottle for public use.

The stuff is Astroglideredface.gifcwm27.gif

I do find knots are harder to cinch up in very cold temps, but if you partially close the knot and then toss the fly and knot into your mouth for a couple of minutes to warm up (good for steelhead fishing) and then tighten it up, I found I had more success with knots not blowing up when testing them.

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Interesting question.. Warmer should = limper, thus easier to get coils to seat well -- On the other hand, warmer should also = increased heat in drawing the knot down, thus increasing likelihood of thermal damage.

I guess it's mostly a question of seating technique vs. ambient tem,ps.

 

Don't want to hijack, but PLEASE try to avoid the habit of putting stuff in your mouth when knotting in freshwater trout streams --- any watershed with beaver can carry Giardia lamblia parasites, which will make you very sick very quickly.

Problem is, in areas without these diseases,we get so used to wetting with saliva that it becomes an automatic behavior, like any bad habit, and can ruin a long-planned trip/vacation, not to mention your health.

Use a bottled lubricant instead.

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Good advice, doc. It is possible to still use saliva as knot lube and stay healthy: with a well-aimed spit.

 

Not very elegant, but it gets the job done.

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Clinch and improved clinch are "the" most unreliable knots ever, regardless of

water temps or lubrication prior to tightening.

 

Wanna land more fish ? Stop using them, period.

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Whaler,

 

I agree. They are a terrible knot from a "burn" standpoint, a loosening standpoint and a strength standpoint. The trilene is also tough to cinch down without burning and is nothing more than a clinch knot with an extra loop through the eye - but it has a lot better breaking strength if it doesn't get burnt tightening. I wouldn't trust it to stay together with thick wire hook eyes, however.

 

If I have plenty of tippet I like to use a three turn "thumb" knot after passing through the hook eye twice. I use back to back "thumbs" when tying tippet to leaders. I'm pretty sure all they are is three turn nail knots, but they are very quick and easy to tie. The only downside I can see is that you wind up with a long tag that is wasted.

 

Cheers,

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I just played with a three turn uni-knot and the thumb tied knot and discovered that the thumb knot is in fact a uni-knot just tied a simpler way (for me).

 

I had noticed that I get the same "bow tie" look when I cinch both the uni and the thumb, and just tied one of each in old fly line and untied them , one step at a time each. Low and behold, they are the same knot!

 

I still can't figure out how that happens. Thanks for post Capt. Castafly. Now I know what kind of knot I've been tying.biggrin.gif

 

Cheers,

Jim

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View PostClinch and improved clinch are "the" most unreliable knots ever, regardless of

water temps or lubrication prior to tightening.

 

Wanna land more fish ? Stop using them, period.

 

 

I beg to differ. Lefty and Mark Sosin's included it in 'knots that you should know' section of 'Practical Fishing Knots'. They even stated that the knot falls in the 95 percent category. If you tie it properly and cinch it down, it is a strong and useful knot, if for no other reason than everyone know how to tie it consistently. Sure a Bimini twist out-tests it, but if you held a knot tying clinic, the average angler could tie an improved clinch knot far more consistently than a Bimini.

 

I can tie these at night, in the rain, on a pitching boat, and be assured that they will have about the same strength as any other time that I tie them. I have never lost a fish to an improved clinch knot failure. Feel free to use any other knots that you would like, but don't confuse the utility of other knots with unreliability of an improved clinch knot.

 

Also, don't under-rate the importance of consistency in knot tying. I have seen just as many fish lost to poorly tied 100% knots as to improved clinch knots. Technique is often the problem rather than the particular knot. Even properly tied 70% knots tied in 20lbs will hold at forces that well exceed typical drags settings used for striper fishing. A 70% knot should handle 14lbs of force, whereas typical striper fishing drags are much less than that. Heck, most Abus that I have seen tested top out at around 14-15lbs of drag.

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View PostIs it me or is this just weird?

 

I usually tie an improved clinch knot for all my flies up to 20 lbs test. It seems that during the early months of the season some of the knots get undone. This happens while playing fish.

 

Now in warmer weather the same tying technique is used but now it works perfectly. In most cases flouracarbon is the leader material. Every time the knots gets lubricated while tightening. Same procedure for all.

 

Does anyone else have had similar experiences? Does higher temperature have any effect on knot tying making the material more limp or slippery to cinch?

 

 

This seems entirely plausible, though I haven't tested it. As hydocarbon based lines get warmer, they are able to stretch more and deform more than at lower temperatures. This stretching and deformation is key to strong knots because they improve the ability of the knot to seat.

 

View PostOh, ho. Now this is interesting. How many people have noted a difference in the reliability of a given knot in different temperatures?

 

Could it be that some knots are just easier to tie when your fingers are cold then others?

 

Generally speaking, one complaint I have with fluorocarbon is that it knots poorly, as compared to mono.

 

 

My guess is that part of the problem is the fluorocarbon. It is well known that fluorocarbon has a lower knot strength (as a percentage of the line's breaking strength) than nylon mono. 95% knots in nylon mono often test out at 70% (or less) in the same strength fluorocarbon.

 

This is largely due to less stretching and deformation in the fluorocarbon. When you pull on mono it stretches and becomes thinner at the same time. This allows the knot to be drawn tighter because thinner diameter line forms a smaller knot. When you release that tension, the nylon mono "unstretches" and its diameter expands. It is compressed against the other parts of the knot. The result is more surface area that is contact with other sections. More surface area contact equals more friction, and more resistance to slipping and unravelling.

 

Colder temperatures mean less "stretching" and deformation, and poorer seating. Generally, unless you are storing you line in an unheated basement, I would guess that air temperature won't have a huge affect on nylon mono, but cold water may have a noticeable effect with fluoro. After all you may be initially tieing the knot and seating it at 65 degree air temperature and then dunking it in 45-50 degree water. With nylon mono, if you lose 5% in knot strength, the knot may go from 95% to 85% , which is likely still above your drag setting. With fluoro, if you lose 10% of your knot strength, the knoe could go from 65% to 55% and its strength may be less than your drag setting. When combined with the odd marginally seated fluoro knot, this may be enough to allow slippage. Any retie of the knot will be at the lines new lower (water) temperature making it even less likely to seat well.

 

Capt., I assume that you know that there are usually modified instructions for most knots when using fluorocarbon. They usually include extra turns to provide more friction and up the knot's breaking strength because of the poorer seating in fluorocarbon.

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Crashq,

 

I've never read much about fishing, so I just did a search of Lefty and Improved Clinch and found a book section "Essential Knots".

 

The very last line of Lefty's says:

 

For most monofilaments of larger than 12 pound test, the improved clinch knot is difficult to close and I don't recommend it
I would assume this would be downgraded to 10 lb test for most fluoros.

 

But there is another reason why I personally don't like this knot except for emergency situations. That is because the entire knot is held together by one strand of mono or fluoro totally exposed on the Outside of the knot running transversely to the rest of the wraps.

 

Whereas in many other knots, this is not the case. In many other knots, each wrap is supported by adjacent wraps, and the likelyhood of one getting severed or abraided and causing knot failure is less, I think, than in the case of the improved clinch or clinch.

 

The other reason I don't like it is as I said, they are easy to burn when tying them. The reason is that, to clench them, you have to pull on the standing line only which has to travel through the center of the wraps, around the hook eye and through every wrap, constricting them onto the standing line which is what is forced to do all the cinching. This, I would bet, is why the "improved" clinch consistently tests weaker than the regular old clinch, there is no slippage of the tag end at all in the final stages of clenching.

 

While the uni and nail knots are also clinch knots, I don't think Lefty should have lumped them in with the clinch, improved clinch and blood knots in the paragraph below the quote above.

 

Both the uni and the nail knots have huge advantages over the former in that you are clinching them by pulling in a straight line in opposite directions using both the tag and standing ends of the same line. The line you are clinching around is not even moving, and the knot is being tightened from both ends, not just one. So the total line movement in achieving the same clinch force (in just the wraps alone) is half. Furthermore, I'd bet that the cinching force is much more even over the length of the knot. Nor is the line running through and around a hook eye while it is being cinched down.

 

For this reason, it is actually almost impossible to burn or plastically deform a uni or nail knot (or the line on the other side of the knot) while tying one, and I think Lefty would agree with me.

 

Cheers,

Jim

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What brand of fluorocarbon are you using. One particular brand I was using all my knots slipped so I stopped using it, especially after testing it in my workshop and saw what was happening. Could not believe how easily that line slipped those knots.

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