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Plug

hook penetration

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A while back I did a little experiment to see which circle hook set the easiest. A thin-wire ie. Matzuo/Daiichi or thick-wire ie Mustad/Gami Bigeye.

 

I took a Mustad 39960 Demon 10/0 and a Matzuo 123 10/0. The mustad point was dull so I filed a triangulated point sharp enough to stick on my fingernail. The Matzuo with it's chemically sharpened point I did not sharpen. However the sharpness of the point was irrelevant to the test since penetrating past the barb required the greatest amount of force.

 

I then measured how much force it took for the two hooks to penetrate (past the barb) four plys of duct tape. I realize duct tape is not fish skin but a drum's mouth is not readily available in February. I repeated the test three times for each hook and averaged the results.

 

It took the thin-wired Matzuo an average of 2.98 pounds of force to penetrate the tape.

 

It took the thick-wired Mustad an average of 5.88 pounds of force to penetrate the tape.

 

It required practically two times the force for the Mustad! icon24.gif

 

I believe either hook is fine if the fish picks up the bait and moves away from you. But there are times when the fish picks up the bait and swims towards you. If the rod is spiked the only thing that will set the hook is the force required to drag the sinker. (Which is why I always use 8 oz. when spiking regardless of the conditions.) Even if you are holding the rod the first resistance the fish feels will be the sinker. I want the resistance of the sinker to be sufficient force to set the hook. That likelihood is much greater with the thin-wired hook.

 

Just my .02

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interesting experiment,Plug.

I'm actually not surprised that the thin wire hooks penetrate 2x easier in a controlled test...

The problem I have with the thin wire hooks is....they not only go in easier,,,they come out easier too.I would guess that the force required to shake a thin wire circle out is way,way less than half of what it takes to shake out a mustad demon or a gama big game circle hook.I think that the problem is the tiny barb that all of the thin wire hooks seem to have.....and the tendency that the thin hooks have to enlarge(tear) the entry hole in a heavy fish's mouth.

I havn't seen a matzuo yet....but I'll try them out first chance I get.I have never seen them for sale, but I'm looking now.I'm always willing to get new stuff! I am already leaning toward trying smaller baits and hooks for drums this year.

No doubt that the super sharp thin wire hooks give an advantage iffn a fish picks up a bait and swims toward you.No doubt.

I have been using mustad 39948D circle hooks last year or so..Kinda dull out of the pack, but not expensive and sort of a compromise between thick and thin wire...wish I could say that I have caught enough big fish with them to grade thembiggrin.gif

525

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At the price of mustad compared to others, its almost worth it

to re-sharpen the new hooks (which I don't)

 

I've never had a problem or lost a fish with these.

 

Erik's got a good point about the sharper hooks..Easy in, Easy out.

 

Great thread btw...

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Being a fly fisherman i use always use Hooks with the barbs pinched down and never have a problem losing fish. Plug if you still have your test rig out i would love to know the difference between a barbed hook and one with the barb pinched down. I think i would want a barb if i were spiking the rod, but with fly fishing they are much easier to remove from the back of my neck without a barb. I used barbless for flounder fishing last year, I was 0 for 89 before i caught a keeper it was much easier to get the hook out without damaging the fish, hopefully the rules will change this year.

Great Thread

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...."easy in easy out" is why I switched to the mustad demons many years ago from the gami octopus circle 8/0 hook. The gami would sometimes come out as fish rolled in the waves up close, occaisionally they would fall out after I had beached a fish. In those days I never even had need to wear pliers as hook removal was pretty darn easy. Then one day I met steve coleman(before sol) who had just put a nice fish on his tailgate....his hook seemed huge and I asked about it and started using the demons with great success but now I had to cary pliers as these hooks did not come out easily! The only problem (if it is a problem?) was the hooks were dull as crap and had to be sharpened when new and frequently thereafter ,there also seemed to be quality control problems. Then one day I was at Oyster Bay talking to Sue about hooks when we got out Henry's catalogue and looked through hundreds of hooks looking for one with a similar shape to the demon but with a conical sharp point.....thats when I saw the Big Eye and asked her to order a couple packs for me........ I still use it today.....however I don't believe it's the perfect hook, the thickness is just a little too much......and the cost is way high for a tin hook. There also is sometimes a gap at the hook eye that 80 lb floro can wedge into when snelling. Another small complaint....the metal is very brittle so if you offset (I don't) this is not the best hook, and you cannot close the gap at the eye with a hammer. Still I haven't found a more reliable hook for big fish.....still looking.

 

525

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I don't believe it's the thin-wire or smaller barb that makes the hook come out. I have never lost a fish after the hook set with the Matzuos that I can recall.

 

I believe most of the knock on thin-wire hooks is because of people's experience with the gamakatsu octopus circle.

 

Case in point:

View Post...."easy in easy out" is why I switched to the mustad demons many years ago from the gami octopus circle 8/0 hook. The gami would sometimes come out as fish rolled in the waves up close, occaisionally they would fall out after I had beached a fish.

 

 

Those gama's are notorious for coming unbuttoned in the wash. It ain't because it's a has thin wire, it's because of the gama's shape.

 

This has been beat around before and nearly every time that somebody had a hook come out in the wash it was the 8/0 gamakatsu octopus circle hook. I've put this pic up before and here it is again with some modifications.

attachment.php?attachmentid=42&d=1234288

 

The hook on the left is an 8/0 gamakatsu octopus circle The hook on the right is a 10/0 matzuo 123 circle.

 

If you compare the two I think you can see why the gama comes unbuttoned.

 

First the hook's throat is very shallow, 6/10" on the gama compared to 1" on the matzuo. Just not much there to take a bite.

 

Second the point side of the hook shank is parallel to the eye side of the shank. The matzuo the point side of the shank is backset significantly towards the eye side of the shank, creating a notch for the fish's jaw to set in. I also believe the shape of the gama without the backset makes it more prone to rotate out.

 

When you combine those two elements of the gama if the fish flops around in the wash it's a lot easier for the hook to come out. I'm betting if the fish flops around and presses the shank of the hook against the sand it creates a lever and pops the hook out smooth as butter.

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A couple observatsions on my end.

 

Never lost a drum on Gami but did have one hit the beach without a hook in it, must have came un buttoned in the wash and the wave hooked me up beaching the fish. What I did notice on Gami's/Owner and the like is that I got a lot of mouth skin hookups and by the time I went to pull the hook it had worked such a large hole in the skin it was barely in there. One more problem with the mouth skin hook ups is that with great pressure you can surely pull the hook and I've seen enough drum fighting mouth open to think that it would just come right now and not catch a jaw.

 

With the larger hooks 9/0-10/0 big eyes and a nice heavy sinker (which I think is key for distance and hookup) I've never been anywhere but sunk deep in something hard. The large hook non-offset design keeps them from hooking what they aren't supposed to. After the fish picks up my bait they have about 3' of FF action before the sinker hits a knot which in most cases pulls the hook into position, after which I do need to set it to get a good bite. Now a set for me is taking 5 or so steps back with thumb pressure on the spool to get rid of slack and get the barb burried. This fall all my drum picked up and swam to shore for some reason and no issue on hook sets with a short leader. My only issues came on cannonballs since the fish is picking up a sinker sandwich and doesn't have to pull the sinker to keep moving. In those cases I think the sinker blocked the hook from engaging on the way out...sure were good 20 second fights until the fish turned...happened back to back and then I switched back to short rigs.

 

Gami Big Eye, 1" hook leader with 8+oz is damn near 100% for me, I can't recall losing a fish on this setup. Out of maybe 10 drum and a bycatch of 5-6 good size sissy fish since switching to big eyes. Sure is nice to have a good hunk of metal in the corner of the mouth with a huge barb. To be honest once my line survives the initial pressure of a hookup, I have very little doubt the fish will be landed.

525

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and for sharpness...big eye wins for big hooks. Fished 5 days straight with the same hook and hook leader (1" 200lb) and caught fish the last day with no problem and was still super sharp even after piercing bunka heads and peelers for 5 days. Finally got bit off by a chark (I saw it in the wash) on what ended up as my last cast for the trip.

 

All that said, the best hook is the one YOU are most confident fishing, nothing fun about worrying the whole time you have a fish on.

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View PostWhat I did notice on Gami's/Owner and the like is that I got a lot of mouth skin hookups and by the time I went to pull the hook it had worked such a large hole in the skin it was barely in there. One more problem with the mouth skin hook ups is that with great pressure you can surely pull the hook and I've seen enough drum fighting mouth open to think that it would just come right now and not catch a jaw.

 

With the larger hooks 9/0-10/0 big eyes and a nice heavy sinker (which I think is key for distance and hookup) I've never been anywhere but sunk deep in something hard. The large hook non-offset design keeps them from hooking what they aren't supposed to.

 

 

What makes the Gami and the like-shaped Owner SSW skin hook is the shape. With the shank on the point side on nearly the same axis as the pull of the line the point rides low and the hook will trip and catch much easier. So it hangs up easy resulting in roof of mouth/skin hooks.

 

With the shank of the point backset like on Big Eyes, Matzuos and Mustads the point rides up higher and slides to the jaw.

 

attachment.php?attachmentid=43&d=1234469

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agreed on shape Plug

 

There is something to be said from your analysis though. A thinner wire needle sharp hook will grab what is not supposed to "more easily" then a big honkin hook.

 

anyways I got one I like so I'm sticking to it...might take me broke though. Good thing I can't fish as much as most of you guys.

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Ah...the annual winter hook debate...

 

Plug is right...and the proof is in the pudding-the test he performed... A thinner hook w/ a smaller hook point profile (size/shape) will penetrate quicker and with less pressure...and in a perfect world this is what you want for the type of surf we do w/ bait and the giant fish that might be encountered along our coast.

 

However, Allen is also correct...the smaller diameter hooks w/ smaller hook points are a little bit more prone to coming undone-for 2 reasons...the barb is relatively smaller in the thinner hooks...and a thinner hook can enlarge the penetration (hole) in the fish's mouth...the latter depending somewhat on where the hook found home...

 

Gami Octopus Hooks I tried a lot...don't like them! A little thin (standard model, not the 4x strong hook) and not a true circle hook!

 

Mustads Circle Hooks...tried them a lot too...lousy points-poorly shaped and not sharp out of the box! Demons are too thick! However, that Duratin finish is excellent!

 

Rapala and Gami Big Eye circle hooks...too thick and very expensive...but tough as nails like Mustads Duratin hooks and sharp!

 

Daiichi Circle hooks...the best shaped hook point on the market...and the sharpest too...not too thin and not too thick! The 13/0 to me is perfect for both Red Drum and Stripers. The original Daiichi Circle hook that came out about 8 years ago had a tough black chrome type finish...but Daiichi changed to a lesser black chrome finish about 4 years ago...the hooks don't last as long now...still a great hook, but expensive!

 

Since the Matzuo hook is one of the subjects on this thread, I guess this would be a good time to give a report...

 

I was shown the Matzuo Circle hook for the first time about 8 years ago by some OBX fishermen...they swore by them...but I didn't try these hooks until about 18 months ago after Daiichi raised prices on their circle hooks...so looking for an alternative, decided to try the Matzou 10/0... I am disappointed...the hook is too thin for my liking...but the real problem is the poor barb design/construction (too small to begin with) and the lousy metal finish used... Here's some pictures of a couple hooks after several day's use... Note the barb is just about gone in the 1 picture...and the point is badly deteriorated in both...equally, the black chrome finish is all but gone which can happen on hooks, but in this case it was pretty quick. And the hooks were always cleaned w/ fresh water after a days use...

 

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No hook is perfect...but these Matzou's per my experience are junk!

 

I am going back to the Daiichi's...

 

Poppy

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