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Keith White

swimmer definitions ?

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ok.., please excuse this ignorance.

 

With our own plugs, i could explain things away like rocket science.

 

However, we are 4000 miles away from Striper central so...

 

Swimmers ?

 

From a builders perspective.

 

What makes a Danny a Danny, a cowboy a cowboy, surfster a surfster, pikie a pikie and junior a junior. I know there are others too which adds to the confusion.

Eel punts 'round nose' is like a 'junior' nose wise. Are these names crossovers or is there more too it ?

 

Are they wired the same ? eg, the through wire angle relative to the start of the lip?

 

I know in another thread it was explained about lure main body shape and wiggle but with all the above, there seems to be some bleed over in design.

 

When would one, be used over another.

 

Also, not seen this, but...

 

When something like a swimmer is built, do you just rely on hook and swivel to act as a keel or...

 

Do you check the blanks balance first to find any 'heavy' side ?

 

TIA

 

btw, i have read alot of material on the history of Atom, Danny etc.

Plugology from Bassdozer and more history over on Tattoo's site.

 

Still none the wiser.

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the shape of the plug makes it what it is, based on who designed it first. ie, a danny is fattest in the middle, sloping to the nose and even more to the tail.

 

Tagger is the master of "hydro orienting" plugs, or floating them to check for a heavy side. Most (but not all) swimmers have a slug of lead in the belly which aids in "keeling" but also affects action, float depth, etc.

 

Have you read Zeno's book? The chapters are marked out by lure type, and when to use them, where, how, etc. Its a GREAT read.

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yea, have both Zeno's books and he describes swimmers well technique wise.

 

What isn't described is the difference in wood, wiring, shape, wiggle, when ?

 

Obviously we aren't stupid, we've swum many types but...

 

Your waveforms are generally very different to ours. This often means that one swimmer design might 'swim' completely differently here.

 

To me, heavy woods like maple would make sense in rougher water.

BM's are maple right ? I think this density is why people say they cast and sit better.

 

We want to basically turn these 'classics' bonsai style.

 

4" swimmers, 4 - 6" narrow wads, 5" X 1/2" jointed, etc. Maybe..even smaller again BUT without loosing that 3/4oz - 1 1/2oz weight range.

 

We cannot, for ANY price replicate the wooden swimmer action with plastic minnow baits. We've tried. Spent alot of money too.

 

You see, the main focus here is 'sandeel', its easy.

But, what happens when our Bass start hitting round fish ?

 

Thats right, no profiles really exist to cover our baits.

Your smaller swimmers/darters etc come closer.... but not quite right action wise and colour scheme wise.

 

We are very impressed with how long these classic designs have survived.

Gotta be something in it. They swim great etc but..

 

The satisfaction of swimming your OWN plugs to catch fish must be great.

 

And, we want to get involved with the builder swaps too. I'm sure you'll understand, we don't want to be sending out rubbish to you guys.

 

So basically, the wiring angles are the same on ALL those plugs then ?

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if u do a search on each type of plug u listed there u will see pics of all of them and u can see the difference in the sizes and shapes. then from there u can search more and see all the different weighting location for each of those plugs.

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Anything that has a lip, which is usually metal, and swims is a swimmer to us. Some have specialized names however, like 'danny', 'atom', 'cowboy', 'pikie', 'diver', etc.. But it is safe to say that if it doesn't pop, dart, walk the dog, or nothing at all in the case of the needle, it is a swimmer.

 

Perhaps the best way to see what's what is to just scroll down through the Plug Collector forum looking at: Beachmaster, Pichney, Atom, GRS, Gary2, Gary Hull, Lefty, Wade Carr, Skippy, RV, Troublemaker, Fixter, Twisted etc.... Also, Google this article to learn a lot about Danny Pichney and Donny Musso's plugs- "Surf Plugology". Lots of great pics that show different styles of plugs, as well as vivid descriptions of their actions, uses and tweaks guys gave them.

 

I learned a lot by doing this and making an album of sorts by saving pics to my PC and then making a scrap book (Power Point is good) with names. You can really start to see the differences when you get them next to each other.

 

I'll PM you a bunch of links to builders over here.

 

Jon

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Yep, all wired by running a wire through the lip and into the plug, catch a swivel on the way to the tail of the plug to hang hook off.

 

Pikie: chin weighted. Larger profile, wide wobble on top, tail slapping water.

 

Danny, widest in the middle, also weight near middle. Tighter wiggle than the pikie.

 

Surfster: usually no weight. Surface plug for calmer water. Wide wobble and roll.

 

Atom Jr. Belly and tail weighted for casting and holding in current.

 

Cowboy: heavy belly weighted to hold in current.

 

While some metal lips are made from heavier wood like birch and maple, most are lighter wood. The lighter wood gives more action. Add lead for ballist and weight.

 

When you talk about your waves being different, you mean larger? Do you have a lot of current? If so, side current, or moving away from you. Distance casting or in close? Most metal lips are not the best casting plugs.

 

Might also consider small bottle plugs or darters for your waters.

 

Jigman

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Keith,

The other guys have said what constitutes a swimmer, your question about wiring and about plug styles, I think, can be answered by "What type of lip does it have?" If it has a surfster lip, it is probably a surfster....same with pikie. But not always wink.gif

Generally speaking, (and this is a big generalization because guys do lots of different things with their designs), the slot which is cut for the lip is cut on the centerline of the face of the plug.....the lip location will determine where the through hole gets marked and drilled for the wire. Some style lips have a few variations, I have 3 different Danny lips on hand, several surfster sizes, and Lefty lips in 2 sizes with 2 different hole locations for each size. All depends on what will work with the shape body you're working with.

After looking at a lot of plugs, you'll start to recognize the common lips used.

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When you talk about your waves being different, you mean larger? Do you have a lot of current? If so, side current, or moving away from you. Distance casting or in close? Most metal lips are not the best casting plugs.

 

yes, lots of current. We can stand in it.

 

40ft tidal range too.

 

You guys have much smaller tides but current. You get cut beach features that are rare on our scoured beaches. However, we get area's of shallow reef with sandy gullies that intertwine and dry out for nearly 3 miles at low tide.

 

on average, in a 20 minute time span, we can have 8ft 4 knot, 4ft 7 knot and then dry land. Our water changes very, very rapidly.

 

Our waves are usually good sized BUT... with very long water tables between. Sometimes so large, a very big cast is needed to go from one crest, to another. At these times the tables can be shallow and lacking white water.

At other times, they get confused but.., its so angry, the white is there, but the water tables are so long, reaching water deep enough is very dangerous as we get a very good 6-7 kts lateral current too.

 

btw: thankyou for your definitions. it helps.

 

If your main focus is sand eels you should be making needles.

 

Yes, we are on that.

We've just had some superstrike specials made up too.

 

If it has a surfster lip, it is probably a surfster....same with pikie. But not always.

 

Ed: Thanks for your input.

 

Its all sinking in guys. Don't worry, you'll be drooling over some pristine british wood pretty shortly.

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I think you need to take a good look at bottle plugs or needles. I make a smaller bottle that is around 5 1/4 and a little over 1 1/2 oz. Casts reaaaal well for its size. Runs a couple feet deep and handles current real well. Those conditions don't sound like metal lip territory.

 

Jigman

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It really isn't just the shape of the plug but also through hole placement. weight or no weight added, shape of bill, Shape of head and body, Hook placement. lip location. Well pretty much everything will make plug swim a certain way. As for names like Pikie, Danny, Cowboy or round nose are more Generic styles rather than a complete description of a lure. Put five builders "Dannies" together and you may have five complete variations of said "Danny".

 

When someone says A Fixter pikie or Eel punt pikie, Jigman pikie or a winch pikie. Then they are talking specific builders representation of what the builder thinks is the best way to build that lure.

 

All in all it is really an individual builders thought on what will work best in the area he plans to use his lure. There is no guideline to making a Cowboy a Cowboy you build to fit your niche.

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View Postyea, have both Zeno's books and he describes swimmers well technique wise.

 

What isn't described is the difference in wood, wiring, shape, wiggle, when ?

 

Obviously we aren't stupid, we've swum many types but...

 

Your waveforms are generally very different to ours. This often means that one swimmer design might 'swim' completely differently here.

 

To me, heavy woods like maple would make sense in rougher water.

BM's are maple right ? I think this density is why people say they cast and sit better.

 

We want to basically turn these 'classics' bonsai style.

 

4" swimmers, 4 - 6" narrow wads, 5" X 1/2" jointed, etc. Maybe..even smaller again BUT without loosing that 3/4oz - 1 1/2oz weight range.

 

We cannot, for ANY price replicate the wooden swimmer action with plastic minnow baits. We've tried. Spent alot of money too.

 

You see, the main focus here is 'sandeel', its easy.

But, what happens when our Bass start hitting round fish ?

 

Thats right, no profiles really exist to cover our baits.

Your smaller swimmers/darters etc come closer.... but not quite right action wise and colour scheme wise.

 

We are very impressed with how long these classic designs have survived.

Gotta be something in it. They swim great etc but..

 

The satisfaction of swimming your OWN plugs to catch fish must be great.

 

And, we want to get involved with the builder swaps too. I'm sure you'll understand, we don't want to be sending out rubbish to you guys.

 

So basically, the wiring angles are the same on ALL those plugs then ?

 

Heres my 'Sand Eel'....metal lip, through-wired,....you can play with the lip angles to get a variety of actions , depth , or shallow rolling /swimming.... this is ayc so its light but has a tight wiggle , diving a little on a fast retrieve ......

525

525

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blueshark:

 

That is the main type of lure we swim all the time with varying degree's of lip and lip angle.

If we could build something like that...wow.

 

There is no guideline to making a Cowboy a Cowboy you build to fit your niche.

 

That probably explains it then.

 

I think you need to take a good look at bottle plugs or needles. I make a smaller bottle that is around 5 1/4 and a little over 1 1/2 oz. Casts reaaaal well for its size. Runs a couple feet deep and handles current real well. Those conditions don't sound like metal lip territory.

 

Yes, bottles. we have swam the SS bottle and smaller Gibbs bottle.

When our current picks up, even in the 3 to 4ft depth, they dig great.

 

Metal Lips..

Its so hard to explain our Island. 9 miles by 5, over 1/3rd more uncovers at low tide. But..., we go from shallow racing tidal reef to ocean storm beach to quiet back bays to fast deep headland races. We have a massive variety of water.

Not too many fish, they are hard earned, but its not a case of finding structure, its choosing which structure they'll choose on the day.

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If you haven't done so already, try a search here on handcarves. A few of us have done step by step threads on how to build them. The nice thing about building them with a stainless lip is that you can tune it on the water to the conditions at hand. Would not be too difficult to build some thin ones like blueshark showed for when sandeels are around and a wider profile for when larger bait is present. I do some that 5 inches and a tad over 1 oz. They'll dig well and hold in good current (have swap them off our breachways). Those types of plugs will typically cast better than a danny or pikie type metal lip.

 

Numbskull and EastendLu have had some good discussions on bottle plugs here. Worth a read as those ones work a little different than the super strike ones. Much more thump to them on retrieve. For swimmer casting distance, hard to beat a bottle.

 

Jigman

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