HatterasJack Posted January 11, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 Give it up, John......these folks are just dismissing us and ignoring us, the same way they do Libertarian principals, because, well, you know, common sense just makes too much sense for them, and scares them, because they might lose their government dole (er, I mean their "share" of OUR money).......... I was simply waiting for ya to enlighten us ... ya started and then dropped [and I don't recall myself supporting gov't taking care of me ; are you saying that you and John have no need for medical coverage because you both take top notch care of yourselves and are in top physical condition and see no need for Medicare Parts A or B ?; OR you both figure you'll always be able to cover your own medical expenses in full?] "Gradatim Ferociter / Carpe Diem / No Guts, No Glory "I hate taxes, and Communism, and inflation. Now, get to work, and remember that the person who makes decisions around here is ME." Ronald Reagan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve in Mass Posted January 11, 2007 Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 HJ....I was just waiting for someone to answer John's question.....guess I will have to do it.... When government puts a cap on a price that can be charged for a product or service, what happens is that the supplier of that product or service can no longer make a reasonable profit based on the cost to produce that product or service......so, one of two things happens (or both)......either the product becomes of inferior quality so that the costs are reduced and the profit margin is reasonable under the price cap, or the supply of the product starts to disappear as producers realize they can't make a reasonable (or any) profit at the price the government sets, stop producing it, and then there is a shortage of that product. As to providing for my healthcare......I really gotta question that $10-14K number being tossed around on this thread for a family of four. I get my health insurance through Donna's job, seeing as I am currently self-employed. The difference between her being an individual covered or having a family covered (that family being me, but the difference would be the same even if we had 2 kids or 20.....it is individual or family, no in between) is ~$90/month, which is ~$1100/yr. If she only had individual coverage, it would be ~$30 a month. Our out of pocket expenses are about $240 a year for prescription drugs between the two of us (half for each, and hers is for birth control pills), and for me about $50 a year in office visit co-pays. Her office visit co-pays are a bit higher per year, but she is a hypochondriac and goes to the doctor why to often...... Should we need an emergency room visit (what, MAYBE once a year if something strange happens?), the co-pay for that is $75 if you are not admitted. That brings us to MAYBE $2,000/year, more like $1700-$1800. The part that her company pays that is in lieu of salary (as Gami proposed, and I don't dispute that fact), I don't know off the top of my head, but I highly doubt it is $8K......maybe $4-$5K at the very most, I could find out. And we have access to all of the best doctors and hospitals in the nation, with no restrictions other than needing a referral from our respective PCP.... So, yes, I can certainly provide for my own health care without government help....... "You know the Bill of Rights is serving its purpose when it protects things you wish it didn't." "You can no longer be oppressed if you are not afraid anymore - Unknown" SOL Member #174 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HatterasJack Posted January 11, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 HJ....I was just waiting for someone to answer John's question.....guess I will have to do it.... When government puts a cap on a price that can be charged for a product or service, what happens is that the supplier of that product or service can no longer make a reasonable profit based on the cost to produce that product or service......so, one of two things happens (or both)......either the product becomes of inferior quality so that the costs are reduced and the profit margin is reasonable under the price cap, or the supply of the product starts to disappear as producers realize they can't make a reasonable (or any) profit at the price the government sets, stop producing it, and then there is a shortage of that product. As to providing for my healthcare......I really gotta question that $10-14K number being tossed around on this thread for a family of four. I get my health insurance through Donna's job, seeing as I am currently self-employed. The difference between her being an individual covered or having a family covered (that family being me, but the difference would be the same even if we had 2 kids or 20.....it is individual or family, no in between) is ~$90/month, which is ~$1100/yr. If she only had individual coverage, it would be ~$30 a month. Our out of pocket expenses are about $240 a year for prescription drugs between the two of us (half for each, and hers is for birth control pills), and for me about $50 a year in office visit co-pays. Her office visit co-pays are a bit higher per year, but she is a hypochondriac and goes to the doctor why to often...... Should we need an emergency room visit (what, MAYBE once a year if something strange happens?), the co-pay for that is $75 if you are not admitted. That brings us to MAYBE $2,000/year, more like $1700-$1800. The part that her company pays that is in lieu of salary (as Gami proposed, and I don't dispute that fact), I don't know off the top of my head, but I highly doubt it is $8K......maybe $4-$5K at the very most, I could find out. And we have access to all of the best doctors and hospitals in the nation, with no restrictions other than needing a referral from our respective PCP.... So, yes, I can certainly provide for my own health care without government help....... no you can't Steve cause Donna ain't gonna work till the day she dies (I hope) your description above is for the current timeframe and some of amount of your and her future. Will you two take care of yourselves and tell the gov't to apply your respective social security checks against the federal deficit? Similarly, will you both NOT sign up for Medicare A/B? "Gradatim Ferociter / Carpe Diem / No Guts, No Glory "I hate taxes, and Communism, and inflation. Now, get to work, and remember that the person who makes decisions around here is ME." Ronald Reagan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishnmagician Posted January 11, 2007 Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 HJ....I was just waiting for someone to answer John's question.....guess I will have to do it.... When government puts a cap on a price that can be charged for a product or service, what happens is that the supplier of that product or service can no longer make a reasonable profit This statement is not true. If the govt. capped the price that can be charged for gas at 3.00 per gallon for reg. this would not have an impact, as the cap is higher than is currently being charged. but I dare say that the price could be capped at BELOW what they were charging during 2006, and based on their historic profits, I would bet they could still make a REASONABLE profit. Eggy 10-13 LAA 7-14 50-50 2-15 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve in Mass Posted January 11, 2007 Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 Our Social Security check? You're kidding, right? By the time we are "entitled" to it, there won't be any such thing......it will be bankrupt, and the money we that we have been robbed of since we were both 16 years old will have been squandered by the same folks that many are now looking to to take care of their healthcare.......but that's a different thread......and those thoughts apply to Medicare as well..... As far as our healthcare when Donna or I no longer work, that has already started to be taken care of via various means...... "You know the Bill of Rights is serving its purpose when it protects things you wish it didn't." "You can no longer be oppressed if you are not afraid anymore - Unknown" SOL Member #174 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HatterasJack Posted January 11, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 This statement is not true. If the govt. capped the price that can be charged for gas at 3.00 per gallon for reg. this would not have an impact, as the cap is higher than is currently being charged. but I dare say that the price could be capped at BELOW what they were charging during 2006, and based on their historic profits, I would bet they could still make a REASONABLE profit. yup, and similar to the oil companies have a monopoly on gas (which we can all admit we can't do without) the medical industry also has us by the balls. So, if Uncle Sam has to come along and tell them they can only charge xx dollars for a procedure and we ALL can get that same procedure ... guess what? I can live with that. Because it will mean the folks that actually control life and death in this country will no longer be the top 3 percent of money makers. Instead they will "modest money" vs "exorbitant money" If that's what it take, I'll take it. Cause the current scheme isn't working out all to well and I for one see it getting worse, much worse. "Gradatim Ferociter / Carpe Diem / No Guts, No Glory "I hate taxes, and Communism, and inflation. Now, get to work, and remember that the person who makes decisions around here is ME." Ronald Reagan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve in Mass Posted January 11, 2007 Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 FnM.....are YOU going to decide what a "reasonable" profit is? Who is? What relatively small group of people that are succumbing to the "Pretense of Knowledge" will? Only a free market and the interaction of hundreds of millions of people can decide that........but that is something that you refuse to understand. And let's not sidetrack this thread with an oil company profits discussion..... "You know the Bill of Rights is serving its purpose when it protects things you wish it didn't." "You can no longer be oppressed if you are not afraid anymore - Unknown" SOL Member #174 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve in Mass Posted January 11, 2007 Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 HJ.....you are missing the point of the answer to John's question..... You said "and we can all get that same procedure"...... What is gonna happen when the government caps the price that can be charged for that, and the folks that are capable of providing that procedure decide that they can't make enough money doing so, so decide to put their efforts and endeavors elsewhere? THEN NO ONE WILL GET IT, or if they can, they will have to wait so long to get it from the few providers that are left that they die waiting................sort of like Canada and other nations where healthcare is government controlled. Or maybe we can also have the government tell those folks that they can't change careers, and force them to do it......... "You know the Bill of Rights is serving its purpose when it protects things you wish it didn't." "You can no longer be oppressed if you are not afraid anymore - Unknown" SOL Member #174 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HatterasJack Posted January 11, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 Steve, you are singing to the chior I am unquestionably in favor of free market practices, capitalism, and free trade however, sometimes mitigating factors appear in which someone must control greed (gouging, fraud, etc) and protect the people there may or may not be alternative ways to do that and one of those ways may require gov't intervention if oil prices drove gas up to $5.00+ per gallon what should be done. Our country can't tank. Our economy can't tank. The world economy can't tank. Big Gov't may have to intervene. Either they can cap the price of gas and subsidize or they can take over a source of petroleum. may not be economics 101, but it's a fact of life 101 health care is not different. when the time comes that the majority of the middle class can't afford health coverage, somethings gotta give. And I suspect you'll agree it will get worse before it gets better. "Gradatim Ferociter / Carpe Diem / No Guts, No Glory "I hate taxes, and Communism, and inflation. Now, get to work, and remember that the person who makes decisions around here is ME." Ronald Reagan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve in Mass Posted January 11, 2007 Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 Either they can cap the price of gas and subsidize You are still missing the point......"subsidize".......where does that money come from for the subsidies? Oil is STILL $5.00 a gallon.....the government will "subsidize".....but the governemnt DOESN'T HAVE MONEY.....it comes from the people....so one way or another, PEOPLE are STILL paying $5.00 a gallon, no matter how you like to paint it......... Alright, am I the only one that understands this concept? "You know the Bill of Rights is serving its purpose when it protects things you wish it didn't." "You can no longer be oppressed if you are not afraid anymore - Unknown" SOL Member #174 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishnmagician Posted January 11, 2007 Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 Steve, why is it that you get to determine someone can't get a REASONABLE profit, but then claim nobody gets to decide what reasonable is? putting caps on necessities makes a heck of a lot of sense to me..... in order to prevent price gouging/ price fixing. Eggy 10-13 LAA 7-14 50-50 2-15 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HatterasJack Posted January 11, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 Steve, your understanding of the concept is that the subsidy in question is a one that will be attained through a 'new tax' If I'm already paying Big Gov't all my wages from Jan - April, and gas goes through the roof and they cap it at 5 and subsidize it with the same money they've already taken from the wallet in my left rear pocket, then that's good application of subsidizing for a necessity for its people "Gradatim Ferociter / Carpe Diem / No Guts, No Glory "I hate taxes, and Communism, and inflation. Now, get to work, and remember that the person who makes decisions around here is ME." Ronald Reagan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HatterasJack Posted January 11, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 Steve, your understanding of the concept is that the subsidy in question is one that will be attained through a 'new tax' ... that in order to subsidize, gov't will take another 2.00 per gallon out of my left pocket while I pay 5.00 out of my right If I'm already paying Big Gov't all my wages from Jan - April, and gas goes through the roof and they cap it at 5 and subsidize it with the same money they've already taken from the wallet in my left rear pocket, then that's good application of subsidizing for a necessity for its people "Gradatim Ferociter / Carpe Diem / No Guts, No Glory "I hate taxes, and Communism, and inflation. Now, get to work, and remember that the person who makes decisions around here is ME." Ronald Reagan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NS Mike D Posted January 11, 2007 Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 putting caps on necessities makes a heck of a lot of sense to me..... in order to prevent price gouging/ price fixing. competition prevents price gouging/price fixing putting a caps ensures price fixing you can set rules that require the service is provided to all since necessities should not be limited to only the wealthy. BTW, the legal system works this way - if you cannot afford a lawyer, you get one. There are fees that fun the program and lawyers are required to provide a certain amount of pro bono work. "... let it go - lets move forward." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HatterasJack Posted January 11, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 BTW, the legal system works this way - if you cannot afford a lawyer, you get one. There are fees that fun the program and lawyers are required to provide a certain amount of pro bono work. is this specific to your state - the pro bono work? to your other point about regarding competition - you can't always apply free market principles (nor economics 101) to "necessities" health care is definitely one while gasoline ... well, unfortunately we've made it one "Gradatim Ferociter / Carpe Diem / No Guts, No Glory "I hate taxes, and Communism, and inflation. Now, get to work, and remember that the person who makes decisions around here is ME." Ronald Reagan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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