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lichum

New Member Greetings

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Greetings everyone: Right off the bat or should I say right off the stick I want to wish all members good fishing and long throwing in 07. May you throw far and catch many fish. I am a designer and machinist and grew up fishing Great south bay Long Island New York, that is what li stands for in front of chum. I have fished shinnecock (not sure of spelling) , great and little peconic bay, L.I. sound, Mystic CT, montauk, (is gosmans dock still there?) block island martha's vineyard etc. All this decades ago as a boy.

My interest now concerns the science, technology, and physics of reels that cast extraordinary distances. The wealth of experience on this board , literally many millenia of collective experiece , is stupendous. I consider it a privelege to be able to tap into it. That said my first technical query is: On a spinning reel (FIXED SPOOL) what percentage of the loss in casting distance is attributable to the line contact with rod guides, and, what percentage of lost casting distance is due to the line contact with the fixed lip of the spool as the line is stripped from the spool?HAS ANYONE EVER DESIGNED A FIXED SPOOL REEL WITH A TRIGGER OR LEVER ACTUATED CONICAL DEVICE THAT WOULD DECREASE SPOOL LIP DIAMETER AS THE LINE LEFT THE SPOOL? Get back to me, all you experieced experts at your leisure please.

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Welcome. HappyWave.gif

I would venture to guess that line manufacturers know the drag coefficients of the line they produce.

 

The reel question.... Although trigger less Alvin produces a fixed spool reel. They are noted to be long casting.

 

I'm no expert in this stuff, but I'm sure one of the long distance casters will chime in here

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Thanks for response. I have not heard of Alvin make of reel. The Aussies make a reel called ALVEY. some of the spools are 7 inches in diameter!!!! They rotate 90 degrees to cast then 90 degrees back in opposite direction to be "set" and register in "reeling in" position. Glad to be aboard happy 07.

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Thanks for response. I have not heard of Alvin make of reel. The Aussies make a reel called ALVEY. some of the spools are 7 inches in diameter!!!! They rotate 90 degrees to cast then 90 degrees back in opposite direction to be "set" and register in "reeling in" position. Glad to be aboard happy 07.

 

 

That is the one I was refering to.redface.gif

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Here's my unscientific take on the distance thing smile.gif

 

 

 

The primary, controllable factors effecting casting distance on a spinning reel (fixed spool) - assuming the weight cast is perfectly suited for the theoretical outfit we're discussion:

 

 

 

1. Friction between the guides and the line - starts off at max and decreases as line is "collected" towards the center of the guides - but increases as the spool diameter decreases causing the line to come off the spool at an increased angle to the spool lip. The rigidity of the line is an important factor in #1.

 

 

 

2. Friction between the line and the lip of the spool - starts off minimal and increases as the spool diameter decreases and the angle of the line to the spool lip increases. Line diameter and spool design are the keys here.

 

 

 

There are some excellent long cast spools in play these days - Diawa really seemed to pave the way in that regard. Since an adjustable spool is basically impractical in applications involving salt water or sand, they did the next best thing. They maximized the spool length and minimized the spool depth - this minimizes changes to the spool diameter during a cast. The worst possible spool design is the oldest style - like the old Penns or VS reels - very short and very deep - that spool design maximizes the effects of spool diameter changes during a cast.

 

 

 

Personally, I like spools that are a good blend of height and depth - and I use soft, thin braids smile.gif

 

 

 

TimS

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might want to run it by a "source" (or several sources) and see what comes back

 

Daiwa Corporation

12851 Midway Place

Cerritos, CA, 90703

admail@daiwa.com

 

Telephone: (562) 802-9589

Fax Number: (562) 404-6212

Office Hours:

Monday to Friday 7:00am to 4:00pm PST

 

Mailing Address:

Daiwa Corporation

P.O. Box 6031

Artesia, CA 90702-6031

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Morning, lichum. You and I are probably going to get along just fine. Fellow designer & machinist here.

 

As said, Daiwa paid close attention to this, and have several special tournament reels especially for the distance-casting specialists. If you recall perhaps 12-15 years ago it was in vogue among several manufacturers to produce similar so-called pignose spool reels.

 

"HAS ANYONE EVER DESIGNED A FIXED SPOOL REEL WITH A..."

 

Yes, quite probably. Very seldom are things in reels truly new. (somebody always gets upset when I say that, but never mind) The patent offices archives are filled with phenomenally creative devices, literally thousands of them, for many decades.

 

I don't know if your gizmo is there or not, because I really don't follow spinning reel development history much; only the basics. Really, if you want to know that you should ask the historians on the ORCA ( ***********oc ) website. Several of them have studied the patent archives, specifically about unusual spinning reels. A fellow named Randy Heller comes to mind. I do know of another development paying close attention to contact surface area @ lip of spool, currently being marketed. A fellow designed a spool with a frontal lip segmentally divided into a number of blades, similar to say, a propeller. Less surface = less surface contact = less friction.

 

On your other thread, you asked about lure aerodynamics. I would like to propose that this plays a more major role in casting distance than anything else. Briefly consider the dynamic behavior of say, a ½ oz potato chip (like a spoon lure) compared to a ½ 0z egg sinker.

 

Thereafter comes things like line thickness, which also plays a role. Other folks here would know how much, but consider that every incremental increase in line diameter entails an increase in surface area with a factor of Pi.

 

Thereafter comes things like ring friction (most at first ring due to coil loops, which was supposed to have been taken care of by the rod builder when he chose ring size) and spool lip friction.

 

I think the reason spools look like they do, is form vs function. The spool is there to hold line. That's all. If it had no lip, it wouldn't work. The ultimate casting reel wouldn't have a spool at all-- you would feed the rod directly, like in fly fishing.

 

Gotta go.

 

Doc.

.

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Doc is right on. By far, the greatest resistance to casting distance is the wind resistance of the lure/bait. Also, the inertia (speed and weight) of that lure/bait is a large player in the distance game. These factors must be optimized before guide and spool lips come into play. The tall shallow spools that Tim talks of are very effective in reducing line drag to almost a non-factor in long casting in fishing situations.

 

If you are going to design a reel for competition casting where only bare lead weights are cast and distances are very long then line friction factors come more into play but you are playing with very small percentages. The market for competition reels is very small. - HPD

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Thanks for your substantive input. Looks like we have 2 new members (us) who enjoy designing machining. My degrees are in finance and law but i have engineering in my genes my father is a mechanical engineer. I am self taught machinist aesthetics very important to me. As to one of your substantive bits of info, in visualizing spool lip designs i have conjured a segmented type as you did mention. But it seems to me that the beauty of a conventional reel is that the line itself is fed off of the spool as the spool spins unwinding the line. This of course means that the kinetic energy of the "projectile" the bait lure sinker etc. is employed to the extent it can be , (given other immutables AND variables) in achieving distance. And that of course is the goal. The aesthetics of a conventional are most appealing to me. The elegant classic simplicity of the abus is obvious. But i must say the daiwa saltists and high end conventionals for distance are beautiful pieces of reel jewelry. 6061 billet is wonderful stuff. But for less money cast machined polished anodized AL is nice too. I thnik the slosh 20/30 setup is great. Utilitarian? yes but strong reliable good throwers at good price. Are you PHD in engineering? physics? or MD. Will read the other responses to my query .DOC i would like to see conventionals that can throw as a matter of course with regularity 300 yards. We live in 21st century I see this as quite possible especially as new rod material evolves cabable of storing enormous energy as rod loads prior to launch. Glad to hear from a fellow machinisrt designer. Good luck in 07. LICHUM

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Thankyou for your resonse. The points you mention well illustrate the dynamics of line stripping off of a fixed spool and the interplay that occurs among lip configuration, decreasing diameter of sppoled line , contact angle with lip etc. I believe the relativley new thin diameter braid type line and its limpness are most beneficial to distance throwing. Good luck in 07

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Jack: thanks for the contact points. These folks will have highly technical answers. I am unable to intuit right off the stick formulas dealing with the variables involved. There are not that many and an algorithm can be devised to analyze and maximize the desirable variables. My goal Jack, is to have a conventional that as a matter of course, with regularity, can throw 300 yards. Limp thin braid is a big help. New rod materials will evolve , capable of storing great energy prior to launch. One thing I have been thinking about is a sleeve type spool bearing that is filled with pressurized lubricant such that the spool shaft end virtually floats with zero contact. The problem would be seal drag. And the pressure of the lubricant on the shaft end also causes losses. Thanks for your time Jack. LICHUM

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