thanks guys' i will give them a shot and scott,thanks for the web site awsome,knots there i cant begin,to tell you how many fish i lost cause i tied a regular,knot on my hook,i like to practice tieing when not at the spot,gives me that itch to hit the rips,lol i live so far from the ocean now when i lived in hull i would go every morning before work' i lived on Atlantic ave,i would walk across the street,every morning i would get one''' 4 am or so,oops there i go again I'm off the topic at hand but ,any way thanks alot and any other tips you can think of ill give it a shot thanks Ron s.