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Pipeline through the Pinelands (barrens) - Page 2

post #16 of 59

Friends - good discussion on the proposed South Jersey Gas pipeline through the pines.

 

Virtually all the larger NJ environmental groups oppose this pipeline, not just PPA. And the impacts would go well beyond the pines. Here are some reasons why a fisherman or conservationist should oppose this project:

 

1) The line would provide 20 billion cubic feet per year of gas to repower the BL England plant, which is under a DEP Order to shut down, meet air quality standards, or repower. The BL England plant slaughters billions of fish and aquatic organisms and harms the fishery. It should be shut down. Corporate BL England chose to repower. Repowering will allow the plant to continue to slaughter aquatic life in the bay and harm the fishery.

 

As far as I'm concerned, that alone is adequate grounds to oppose the pipeline, which would to be economically feasible without the BL England plant. 

 

2)  Some have argued that the long term strategic agenda for this project is to get the pipeline nose under the Pinelands Commission tent, set a precedent, and use that to build more pipelines along the same route to the coast in order to export Pennsylvania fracking gas. That makes this a very big risk for a huge infrastrucrute project that would harm the entire coast by bringing in more pipelines, storage, processing, shipping, and gas export terminal infrastructure. Bad news for fishermen, The alleged benefits do not justify these risks.

 

3) The pipeline will use horizontal directional drilling to cross 15 streams, a river and several wetlands and lakes. Accident happen - any drilling accidents would harm tributaries and fisheries  - the benonite they use for drilling mud would kill aquatic life in those waterbodies for a long time.

 

4) Pipelines are dangerous - lots of accidents - a fire or explosion would set off an inferno in Pines forests. Wiildlife and fisheries severely harmed by that.

 

5) THis is fossil infrastructure - BL ENgland would emit more than 1 million tons of CO2. Methane from gas pipeline is 23 times more greenhouse gas warming that CO2.

Pines forests are already being severely impacted by clainmte change - pine battle infestation alone is huge. Obviosuly, ocean acidification, changes in fish migration and populations, etc are already being impacted adversely, again bad news for fishermnan. We need to stop fossil infrastructure and make transition.

 

6) The energy is not needed - demand is down and over 2,000 megawatts of gas power is under construction. WE can do far more on efficiency and reneables. We don't need to spend another $500 million when we can do far better and create more jobs for far less.

 

7) There is a principle involved - we all should oppose the idea that corporation can buy regulatory approvals from government - that is flat out corrupt bribery. The pipeline is inconsistent with the Pines Comprehensive Management Plan - the Commission may allow South Jersey Gas to cicumcvent the CMP with a $8 million bribe. Little guys could never do this, just the corporations - and all with YOUR MONEY -

 

You will pay for this boondoggle in your gas and elctic bills and SJG will make a 10% profit on a bribe!

 

Wolfe  

post #17 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ View Post

Thanks for the update, feetinsand. The public Hewaring should be interesting. Has the location of the Public hearing been published yet?

The gas pipeline proposal along with the draft MOA between South Jersey Gas and the Board of Public Utilities will be the subject of a public hearing 5 p.m. Dec. 9 at the Galloway Township Municipal Building.
post #18 of 59
Good news, let's hope they get it done.
post #19 of 59

Addendum to my prior post:

 

Not just enviro's oppose the pipeline: Kirk Moore has written a few killer stories and The Asbury Park Press and Burlington County Times have editorialized in opposition to the project, see:

 

 

Editorial: Say 'no' to pipeline in the Pinelands

"There is no compelling reason for the Pinelands Commission to allow South Jersey Gas Co. to build a 22-mile, 24-inch natural gas pipeline through the Pinelands. There are plenty of good reasons to block it."
 

 

 

post #20 of 59

Public hearing and comment info, from Pinelands Commission:

 

The public hearing will be conducted in the Galloway Township Municipal Building, 33 E. Jimmie Leeds Road, Galloway, NJ.

DATE: Monday, December 9, 2013
TIME: 5:00 p.m. 

 

http://www.state.nj.us/pinelands/about/hearing/index.html

post #21 of 59
Stop the pipeline and then SAVE THE PIPING PLOVERS tongue.gif

There is no room for common sense when arguing with the Tree-Huggers...

"The pipeline is going to explode and burn down the Pine Barrens" ....Please spare me the "END OF THE WORLD" speech.

Running a pipeline along existing roads IS NOT going to have any impact upon anyone's fishing mad.gif

95% of the people that are against fracking in PA live more than 50 miles away from a gas well. The "activists" have been repeating the same lies over and over again and people believe them because they read about it on the internet.

Have a nice day....biggrin.gif
post #22 of 59
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bil Wolfe View Post
 

Friends - good discussion on the proposed South Jersey Gas pipeline through the pines.

 

Virtually all the larger NJ environmental groups oppose this pipeline, not just PPA. And the impacts would go well beyond the pines. Here are some reasons why a fisherman or conservationist should oppose this project:

 

1) The line would provide 20 billion cubic feet per year of gas to repower the BL England plant, which is under a DEP Order to shut down, meet air quality standards, or repower. The BL England plant slaughters billions of fish and aquatic organisms and harms the fishery. It should be shut down. Corporate BL England chose to repower. Repowering will allow the plant to continue to slaughter aquatic life in the bay and harm the fishery.

 

As far as I'm concerned, that alone is adequate grounds to oppose the pipeline, which would to be economically feasible without the BL England plant. 

 

2)  Some have argued that the long term strategic agenda for this project is to get the pipeline nose under the Pinelands Commission tent, set a precedent, and use that to build more pipelines along the same route to the coast in order to export Pennsylvania fracking gas. That makes this a very big risk for a huge infrastrucrute project that would harm the entire coast by bringing in more pipelines, storage, processing, shipping, and gas export terminal infrastructure. Bad news for fishermen, The alleged benefits do not justify these risks.

 

3) The pipeline will use horizontal directional drilling to cross 15 streams, a river and several wetlands and lakes. Accident happen - any drilling accidents would harm tributaries and fisheries  - the benonite they use for drilling mud would kill aquatic life in those waterbodies for a long time.

 

4) Pipelines are dangerous - lots of accidents - a fire or explosion would set off an inferno in Pines forests. Wiildlife and fisheries severely harmed by that.

 

5) THis is fossil infrastructure - BL ENgland would emit more than 1 million tons of CO2. Methane from gas pipeline is 23 times more greenhouse gas warming that CO2.

Pines forests are already being severely impacted by clainmte change - pine battle infestation alone is huge. Obviosuly, ocean acidification, changes in fish migration and populations, etc are already being impacted adversely, again bad news for fishermnan. We need to stop fossil infrastructure and make transition.

 

6) The energy is not needed - demand is down and over 2,000 megawatts of gas power is under construction. WE can do far more on efficiency and reneables. We don't need to spend another $500 million when we can do far better and create more jobs for far less.

 

7) There is a principle involved - we all should oppose the idea that corporation can buy regulatory approvals from government - that is flat out corrupt bribery. The pipeline is inconsistent with the Pines Comprehensive Management Plan - the Commission may allow South Jersey Gas to cicumcvent the CMP with a $8 million bribe. Little guys could never do this, just the corporations - and all with YOUR MONEY -

 

You will pay for this boondoggle in your gas and elctic bills and SJG will make a 10% profit on a bribe!

 

Wolfe  


Excellent info. Thank you for providing your input...

post #23 of 59

The pipeline is only being built to serve the BL England plant - that plant would close without the pipeline.

 

That plant slaughters BILLIONS of fish and aquatic life and has huge impact on the Great Egg Bay and fishery.

 

Any real fisherman would care about that.

post #24 of 59

Do any of you actually have experience w/ pipeline drilling? The drilling mud alone is VERY toxic! We had a small drilling operation in our area right next to a stream I've fished for over 40 years.15 buckets@ 5 gal ea were used for a test drill.The result? For a mile downstream of the drilling site the stream was a barren wasteland.The larger stream it flowed into was impacted as well.3 yrs later the water has not been repopulated w/ fish or any benthic life.How many streams,rivers and wetlands do they have to "go under" to get that pipe to the coast?? Do you really believe that a streambed or wetland is not a permeable substrate and will not be affected? You guys are making judgements from behind your keyboard using selected info to support what you believe w/o actually having been there to experience the negative effects of this process.

Ohio is a very geologically stable state.Old rocks that don't move much or cause earthquakes.Since the state has allowed fracking there have been earthquakes up to magnitude 4 directly due  and traceable to fracking.Not to mention the folks whose lives and property are ruined when the watertable under their land is pumped full of toxic substances in the fracking fluids as well as having methane and other gases coming out of their taps .Does it seem right that you can put flame to your tapwater and have it catch fire? Ya'll would be singin a different tune if it was your livelyhood, life and tapwater being ruined.Very easy to pass judgement when you believe it's in your favor.

post #25 of 59

slipnslide - You are so right - FYI, the pipeline would use HDD drilling (bentonite slurry) under at least 2 ponds, a river and 12- 15 streams:

 

See the Pinelands staff review document for details:

 

http://www.state.nj.us/pinelands/images/pdf%20files/SJGAS%20power%20point%20presentation%20(Final%20Draft%20with%20final%20edits).pdf

post #26 of 59

I view this as a positive, not a negative

post #27 of 59
Blocking this pipeline will not close the Power Plant. The value of the existing infrastructure alone is enough to make it viable for decades to come. The pipeline is a way of getting a cleaner fuel source into the powerplant so that they can reduce their emissions as required by the DEP / EPA.

Bill's use of scare tactics and dangling carrots are typical of Sierra Club tactics, and we know how popular they are in the Outer Banks. mad.gif (Yes, google Bill Wolfe, Sierra Club)

And yes... I am VERY familiar with drilling techniques and the pipeline industry. Bentonite is not toxic, in fact it is used to line many man-made ponds. However if spilled into moving water, it will silt over the bottom of a stream and cause damage to the ecosystem.

Just because someone says it on the internet, doesn't mean that its the truth.
post #28 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by slip n slide View Post

Do any of you actually have experience w/ pipeline drilling? The drilling mud alone is VERY toxic! We had a small drilling operation in our area right next to a stream I've fished for over 40 years.15 buckets@ 5 gal ea were used for a test drill.The result? For a mile downstream of the drilling site the stream was a barren wasteland.The larger stream it flowed into was impacted as well.3 yrs later the water has not been repopulated w/ fish or any benthic life.How many streams,rivers and wetlands do they have to "go under" to get that pipe to the coast?? Do you really believe that a streambed or wetland is not a permeable substrate and will not be affected? You guys are making judgements from behind your keyboard using selected info to support what you believe w/o actually having been there to experience the negative effects of this process.
Ohio is a very geologically stable state.Old rocks that don't move much or cause earthquakes.Since the state has allowed fracking there have been earthquakes up to magnitude 4 directly due  and traceable to fracking.Not to mention the folks whose lives and property are ruined when the watertable under their land is pumped full of toxic substances in the fracking fluids as well as having methane and other gases coming out of their taps .Does it seem right that you can put flame to your tapwater and have it catch fire? Ya'll would be singin a different tune if it was your livelyhood, life and tapwater being ruined.Very easy to pass judgement when you believe it's in your favor.

Ted the fracking in PA is done thousands of feet below any watertable inthe area. The gas sand is way deep. None of the calims about watertable pollution have been proven in court. The watertable ploy is just that. If you tell a lie a thousand times some one will believe it is true. The State of PA and the Federal EPA are all over the frackers and they maintanin the standards set by those two agencies or they are shut down.
post #29 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Surf Guy View Post

Blocking this pipeline will not close the Power Plant. The value of the existing infrastructure alone is enough to make it viable for decades to come. The pipeline is a way of getting a cleaner fuel source into the powerplant so that they can reduce their emissions as required by the DEP / EPA.

Bill's use of scare tactics and dangling carrots are typical of Sierra Club tactics, and we know how popular they are in the Outer Banks. mad.gif (Yes, google Bill Wolfe, Sierra Club)

And yes... I am VERY familiar with drilling techniques and the pipeline industry. Bentonite is not toxic, in fact it is used to line many man-made ponds. However if spilled into moving water, it will silt over the bottom of a stream and cause damage to the ecosystem.

Just because someone says it on the internet, doesn't mean that its the truth.

Bentonite is just a fine particulate clay,there's  other stuff in there that's doing the killing.How else would you explain the resulting fish kills in our stream following the drill?

I aint talkin scare tactics,just first hand experience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ View Post


Ted the fracking in PA is done thousands of feet below any watertable inthe area. The gas sand is way deep. None of the calims about watertable pollution have been proven in court. The watertable ploy is just that. If you tell a lie a thousand times some one will believe it is true. The State of PA and the Federal EPA are all over the frackers and they maintanin the standards set by those two agencies or they are shut down.

Bob,then where does the benzene come from that's showing up in these peoples water? It's not a naturally occurring substance in the water table.Neither are the radioactive chemicals used in the process.We can't even look into what they all are bcz of legislation labeling the substances "proprietary ingredients" as part of the particular chemical mix each company uses for the purpose.You have to drill through the water table to get to that "thousands of feet" and when ya pull the drill all the slurry comes back up as well as incipient leaks around the boring bit and pipe.You seem to think the watertable is a single,unified layer and it's not.It exists at various and multiple levels. And all of those have to be drilled THROUGh to get to the gasbearing rock.

What about the methane in the water? The rock being fracked is very soft sandstone and shale ,not the hard limestone and dolomite of the western part of the state,and it doesn't take much to send huge fractures through such soft substrate.Just take a look at any drilling site for fracking:a dead zone all around and downstream.We've been down this road before in Ohio w/ coal mining and a short drive through any part of SE Ohio still shows the scars,ruin and devastation of the mining process,included in which is the ruin of hundreds of miles of streams;permanently sterilized and no life in them what-so-ever.

BTW,gas sand is in Alberta,we're talking about fracturing solid rock.

The money that the fracking companies have to defend their position in court is ridiculus compared to what a private individual has,apples and oranges for effect.

It's real easy for you guys on the coast to say bring it on when it aint in your backyard.Come out here to Ohio and see what's going on instead of just reading about it ...but then,ya read it on the internet so it MUST be true!

post #30 of 59
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