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Classic Saltwater #24 - Silver Outcast

post #1 of 19
Thread Starter 
Charlie Waterman discovered this fly when given to him by a guide named Rocky Weinstein in Florida . Rocky indicated that the fly was developed by a Retired New England doctor named Ralph Daugherty. It was good with snook. Waterman showed it to Dan Bailey in Montana indicating it was his Silver Doctor, but Bailey stated that they did not tye it that way in Montana. Waterman then called it the Silver Outcast and it has proven effective for all kinds of species of saltwater fish. Daugherty is ,however, the creator for historic purposes.
post #2 of 19
You can find this pattern in the book Flies for Bass and Panfish. Though, I don't recall Farrow Allen tying this pattern with jungle cock eyes. More than likey, Charlie Waterman didn't either.
post #3 of 19
Thread Starter 
Why? Do you know for sure or what does "more than likely" mean?. It would be helpful if you can point me to written sources or your eyewitness account so I can take note of this in my notes. Thanks.
post #4 of 19
Pretty fly, with or without eyes .... Striblue's response is well taken. No credits for scholarship without attribution.
post #5 of 19
"they did not tye it that way in Montana", What, no stripers up there? Thanks again stri.
post #6 of 19
Thread Starter be sure... if I can get additional information..Pro or Con ,it only helps with getting various stories since my sources are those written, yet may not be the full account..or the accurate... since all that is written may only be the authors research and limited .
post #7 of 19
Striblue, I appreciate all the old school fly patterns you have been posting here - great stuff. I have always wondered about fly pattern provenance. Tiers tend to get touchy or territorial about this subject quite easily.

I googled 'silver outcast' and these are some of the hits:

**commercial link removed - TimS

Apart from first-hand information how else do you track down original designs and patterns for your research? Either way, keep them coming Striblue.

[ 09-21-2004, 03:33 PM: Message edited by: TimS ]
post #8 of 19
Thread Starter 
Thanks for that.... Basically what I do is search the books I have on the subject...some of which are books like Joe Bates early work on streamer flies and their saltwater applications... including Books by Joe Brooks. I also use Lefty Krehs book on Saltwater fly patterns.Lefty's book is great since most of the old ones he has in that book where actually tied by the originator. I use other books I get off e-bay that are old but focus on tying and other more recent books like Deke Meyers, and a couple others I can not remember right here where I am, I use Dick Browns work on Bonefish flies... What I do is try and search out the "original" as best as I can... Then I get imput from Joe Branham and Lefty, either directly or though Joe. I spoke to Bill Catherwood. Also, I will, speak to the tyers if I Bob Clouser and was able to win at an auction a black and white , 'signed' instruction sheet from clouser himself... I also have witnessed Lefty tie his deceiver a couple years back on the Cape at Harry Koon's shop in Orleans while I took a casting lession with 10 other guys from Lefty. I spoke to Ken Bay who is still living, and resides in Florida and had published a book on Classic flies back in 1972. I got a number of the flies here from that book. Finally, with the photo's in the books and the materials, I will "try" to immitate the original I see... Now, that being said... it is not necessarilly "The Original" as a copy. It is only the original from what I can find. I will going forward try to interview the actual tyer and send photo's of the fly and confirm the materials list. For example, I see no where where the Outcast has any eye application except the Jungle Cock...BUT...It could have had the painted eyes or none at we see from the examples you post... I also used purple bucktail since I found that in two sources...but your two example had blue...The key is that ALL saltwater flies originated from freshwater streamers... finding the "Missing Link' will actually require speaking with the actual tyer,if living, something I intend to do when I look at ALL these again and redo them with additional information. It maybe that I will need to speak to the next best source, like someone who knew the tyer, back when.Things like that.
post #9 of 19
It is wonderful that you have access to all those great resources and thank you for sharing the feedback.

I have been playing around with mylar tubing using it the way hackle feathers are for deceivers. Basically the tube as the body with various collar types. The effect is very nice but a little too delicate of a fly. I know I have seen this tie before but I cannot recall where. Any suggestions?
post #10 of 19
9wt hit the nail on the head. If you change a pattern by adding anything or taking away materials...or changing something...then you're no longer tying that particular pattern. You can call it whatever pleases you...or whatever you think it is...but don't give credit to the original tier since it could be an insult.

When i bought the book Flies for bass and panfish, i pretty much memorized it, cover to cover. I clearly remembered Waterman's Silver Outcast and that the author did not tie it with jungle cock. I'm also making the assumption that the author (Farrow Allen/Dick Stewart) tied the original pattern. You don't see many classic flies from the Everglades with jungle cock, either, since the capes are expensive and probably were not readily available. So that's why i made the assumption that the original Waterman's Silver OUtcast was not tied with jungle cock. Just an assumption, and nothing more.

Of course, you can call your flies whatever you want...but once you start naming names and giving credit, they should be tied "accurately". There's no question about it...every one of them can be "improved" or modified so it best fits our style of fishing. Some are changed for the better, and jungle cock certainly makes a prettier Striblue's Silver Outcast.
post #11 of 19
I just clicked on the first link in 9wt's post. That site was built and maintained by a fly tier in the Netherlands...Hans Weilenmann. It's an awesome site. Here's the homepage:

It's mostly fresh water patterns but there's a few saltwater pages as well. It's a collection of flies from tiers around the world...but mostly in the U.S. Every one of them is tied emmaculately, and Hans is a master at tying original patterns. If anyone is interested in seeing where you and your flies stand among a few of the best then check it out. Seeing other's people's flies will make you a better tier!
post #12 of 19
Thread Starter 
That guy in the netherlands has contact me on numerious occasions to submit flies and I know a number of the tyers on that site including Joe Branham. I just have not gotten around to it. Thanks for your comments...I did not add the Jungle cock to make it my fly. I will look back and get where I got it. I never claimed to insult a tyer.I just use the sources available to me and are clearly subject to error...But.. I will follow up on the Jungle Cock. Are your sure Farrows Book did not have it with Jungle Cock? It seems you are using "books" also, so I am sure there are different opinions.
post #13 of 19
That's excellent if you can get on his web site. Hans only chooses the best and if he's interested in your flies for his site then that's a pretty damn good indication of your skill level as a fly tier. Give him your best and let us know when the pics are up!

A couple of local guys i wouldn't mind seeing on there either. Speaking of which....

Stevef, when are ya goin to join me on the dark side??? The fly rodders i've seen on the beach are catchin' more sun than fish!
post #14 of 19
Thread Starter 
Thanks.. the problem I have with Hans is that I just have not gotten around to tye up the flies since he needs the actual fly so he can take the picture. He won't accept a I am procratinating, but I will this winter.
post #15 of 19
Thread Starter 
Here is my best sources ,only from the books I have... But Ken Bays Book on Saltwater flies, 1972, has the Silver Outcast with Jungle cock. I think Bays book is my oldest source. I will be speaking with Bay later in October and will describe to him the various opinions on the fly and see what he says...then we move on later in the opinion world to Deke Meyers book, which does list a bunch of Classic flies... and there again I see the Silver Outcast with Jungle cock. Meyers book is dated 1995. These are books on Saltwater flies . There is no reference to Pan fish or other freashwater flies. Finally, Jungle cock hwas actually far easier to get back in the 1930's and 1940' than it is today. We lived in far more rural society where the availability and the use in streamer flies and salmon flies was common place. For example, Carrie Stevens used mostly jungle cock as did many freshwater tyers....before they started painting on eyes. This is the best I can do to tell you where I get my info. I attach two photo's of the flies from both books. the Saltwater book by Stewart and Allen... the authors you mentioned...They clearly have it with jungle cock. That's why I asked if you were sure . I suppose you were refering to the freshwater book those authors wrote....I includ the picture form that book as the third picture. My feeling is that the Hans W. fly and the other one are not tied correctly...

[ 09-22-2004, 12:04 AM: Message edited by: striblue ]
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