Tin Boat

Switch rod doubts

70 posts in this topic

Esa

 

Thanks.

 

Ok it has  taken a while to realise this but I now also recognise that my cast  is narrow. But it has not stopped me casting over 120 feet with wind on left shoulder with ease.  A narrow cast is very useful when deep wading or perched precariously on a rock. The three rod move in lively surf with a high stop is a huge advantage.

 

But I agree my cast needs taking further and I have started the journey.

 

Why?  Reason one I am not happy with my loop size. Reason two not happy with my cast into strong head winds.

 

My longer stroke cast

So I still do my three rod move to get the line well and truely moving and in the air and set up.

Then on my second back cast my lower hand travels much further back behind me following my upper hand. The two hands are travelling in a straight line.The rod angle does not change. Ok a stop is made and then the rod allowed to drift and go towards the horizontal. Forward  cast the two arms with wrists locked in essence pull the rod through the translation stage what Mr Gaweswoth calls The A to B. Rod is then taken through an arc to a firm stop. Just before the stop the lower hand is used to further accelerate the tip to that stop.

 

 

This what I think /hope I am doing. The improvement casting to a head wind is massive over my three rod narrow stroke cast. Timing of which is tricky 

 

ok back in defence of my narrow stroke. This cast requires the minimum of my energy. I can use quite a relaxed grip so muscles don’t get cramped up in hands or arms. I use this when conditions are easy say with wind on my left shoulder and It’s possible to scream the line out.

 

It is a good cast to use at night to as the fewer the rod strokes the better ones timing is without the benifit of acute vision we have during the day.

 

 The narrow stroke is certainly best when wading deep and in a decent surf as line does not crash into breaking surf that has rolled past you.

 

The three rod move narrow cast is tops when it comes to time. In a busy surf with lines of them coming at you time is a premium. The time between waves is often very short. You have to get your cast away or find yourself half way through a cast and also half way up the side of a wave which wrecks everything and then you have to sort the mess out.

 

So there is a reason I cast the way I do but I recognise it’s short comings in certain situations.

 

A fishing cast will be often very different to a cast you guys make in a compitition.

 

Rods also have an effect on line control in a busy surf. Fast soft tips are poor at moving line around in the water quickly. You need a very positive blank to actually fish Out Front.

 

Casting is key but so is ability to boss your line.

 

I never ever sell my own rods so it would be no problem to bring the 9 wt TCR back Into to service and try with my usual 550 grain and up to 750grains .

 

Now I know that with the narrow stroke with 550 into a head wind it was not good with this rod. I have tried heavier lines with the narrow stroke and rod felt sluggish and underpowered.

 

So it will be very interesting for me to see you and your other world class casters  friends cast this rod and my own. In fact it will be just fantastic. Thanks.

 

Apart  from wanting to meet you and  Sakkri which I am keen to do as it is some years since you and I fished together I want to learn how you guys cast your TH rods OH and try and understand the lines you use.

 

I have a feeling that you may revise some of your thinking about rods with my 14 footer nominal rating 12-13. I am happy with 750 so what are you going to line it up with.

 

This has already been a long journey and  will never end. I have so much still to learn.

 

We tend to come at this from two very different directions. You the casting court me the Ocean. I am now entering your world and I believe that if you were to come into mine our discussions would become even more interesting and enlightening for both of us.

 

You have always helped greatly with your informed and considered input.

 

Thanks

 

 Mike

 

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I think it all depends on the make / characteristics of the particular Switch rod in question.

 

I now have two Sage Z Axis 11 foot Switch rods. One is a "6wt" ... the other an "8wt".  With the 6wt Switch I can cast all day long single handily ... using Rio Outbound 7wt line. So functionally the rod is more like a 10'6" single hand fly rod. I used it this year during the Spring Striper run and just love the unit.

 

Likewise, the 11 foot 8wt needs a 450 grain-ish head section (10 or 11wt WF fly line) to load well.... and load well it does ... nearly effortlessly single-handily cranking out 100 foot casts with 10wt Rio Outbound WFI fly line of 465 grains. An AWESOME rod for surf wading (like the Narrow River outlet). Kenny Abrames couldn't have designed a better Striper rod himself, IMHO.

 

Love the Sage Z Axis Switch Rods! Just sayin' :)

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Hi KironaFly

I also own two switch (or short DH) z-axis 11' in # 6 and 7 weight, I love cast and fishing with both. I use them a lot in the surf, but I think to cast all day single hand with the 6wt it makes little sense because it's tiring and allows poor distances compared that if used two-handed overhead casting or with some spey cast like dynamic roll. I use the 6wt mostly with scandi short versitip head 370gr or skagit short 400gr + various 10' sink tips with a thin as possible mono running line in the range of 20-25 lb.

For my humble point of view to cast a switch rod full day one-hand for the same applications it is much better to use a 9 feet 8-9wt specific one-handed rods.

Me too still love the old 11' z-axis! :)

 

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1 hour ago, KironaFly said:

I think it all depends on the make / characteristics of the particular Switch rod in question.

 

I now have two Sage Z Axis 11 foot Switch rods. One is a "6wt" ... the other an "8wt".  With the 6wt Switch I can cast all day long single handily ... using Rio Outbound 7wt line. So functionally the rod is more like a 10'6" single hand fly rod. I used it this year during the Spring Striper run and just love the unit.

 

Likewise, the 11 foot 8wt needs a 450 grain-ish head section (10 or 11wt WF fly line) to load well.... and load well it does ... nearly effortlessly single-handily cranking out 100 foot casts with 10wt Rio Outbound WFI fly line of 465 grains. An AWESOME rod for surf wading (like the Narrow River outlet). Kenny Abrames couldn't have designed a better Striper rod himself, IMHO.

 

Love the Sage Z Axis Switch Rods! Just sayin' :)

Sounds like just what I was looking for.

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Posted (edited)

Tinboat.

 

I would think that KironafFly must be one hell of a physical speciman and a wonderful caster to do what he is doing with single hand casts with 11 foot TH rods and over the indicated time period

Not sure how this will fit with your situation. TH rods are really designed to be cast with two hands not one.

Where are you fishing your rod? What do you want from it? How’s your own cast?

 

Mike

Edited by Mike Oliver

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Mike,

 

I mostly fish from the shore in relatively calm waters in Vineyard Sound,  and do not need heavy tackle. What I want from TH is increased distance without undue wear on my 85-year-old shoulder. My TH cast is erratic, sometimes well over 100', others no more than I get with SH. When the latter occurs it makes me question why I am bothering with TH in the first place. Most of the fish I catch are school stripers well within casting range of SH. TH was an experiment to nurse a bad shoulder, and it worked. But, for now, I no longer need it and am going to put the rod in storage. Thanks for your interest.

 

Tin 

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Tin Boat good strategic thinking.

 

Intreguing is the inconsistency with your TH cast. I get  this to from time to time and it’s frustrating.  If you need to go back to your TH if your shoulder gives you gip again hopefully you can work out reason why and press it back into device again.

 

Tight lines

 

mike

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3 hours ago, Mike Oliver said:

But I agree my cast needs taking further and I have started the journey.

Why?  Reason one I am not happy with my loop size. Reason two not happy with my cast into strong head winds.

 

My longer stroke cast

So I still do my three rod move to get the line well and truely moving and in the air and set up.

Then on my second back cast my lower hand travels much further back behind me following my upper hand. The two hands are travelling in a straight line.The rod angle does not change. Ok a stop is made and then the rod allowed to drift and go towards the horizontal. Forward  cast the two arms with wrists locked in essence pull the rod through the translation stage what Mr Gaweswoth calls The A to B. Rod is then taken through an arc to a firm stop. Just before the stop the lower hand is used to further accelerate the tip to that stop.

 

 

This what I think /hope I am doing. The improvement casting to a head wind is massive over my three rod narrow stroke cast. Timing of which is tricky 

 

ok back in defence of my narrow stroke. This cast requires the minimum of my energy. I can use quite a relaxed grip so muscles don’t get cramped up in hands or arms. I use this when conditions are easy say with wind on my left shoulder and It’s possible to scream the line out.

 

It is a good cast to use at night to as the fewer the rod strokes the better ones timing is without the benifit of acute vision we have during the day.

 

 The narrow stroke is certainly best when wading deep and in a decent surf as line does not crash into breaking surf that has rolled past you.

---------

A fishing cast will be often very different to a cast you guys make in a compitition.

 

Rods also have an effect on line control in a busy surf. Fast soft tips are poor at moving line around in the water quickly. You need a very positive blank to actually fish Out Front.

 

Casting is key but so is ability to boss your line.

 

I never ever sell my own rods so it would be no problem to bring the 9 wt TCR back Into to service and try with my usual 550 grain and up to 750grains .

 

Now I know that with the narrow stroke with 550 into a head wind it was not good with this rod. I have tried heavier lines with the narrow stroke and rod felt sluggish and underpowered.

 

So it will be very interesting for me to see you and your other world class casters  friends cast this rod and my own. In fact it will be just fantastic. Thanks.

 

Apart  from wanting to meet you and  Sakkri which I am keen to do as it is some years since you and I fished together I want to learn how you guys cast your TH rods OH and try and understand the lines you use.

 

I have a feeling that you may revise some of your thinking about rods with my 14 footer nominal rating 12-13. I am happy with 750 so what are you going to line it up with.

--------

We tend to come at this from two very different directions. You the casting court me the Ocean. I am now entering your world and I believe that if you were to come into mine our discussions would become even more interesting and enlightening for both of us.

 

You have always helped greatly with your informed and considered input.

 

Thanks

 

 Mike

 

Mike, unfortunately I am a drop out class TH caster even here in Kerava :( A 14 year young girl did beat me perhaps 50ft last WC two years ago :(  I had pulled my lower back muscle which had big effect there but I am not good TH distance caster and now I concentrate only to SH distance.

 

I can TH cast narrow line loops and fast line loops but not on a same cast. When TH casting the rod tip begins to slow down very early phase which begins the line loop formation and differs from SH where haul can keep accelerating the line longer. So to cast narrow line loop the forward stop needs to be done quite early but then line speed suffers. Competition casters accelerate longer and then release the line when the line loop begins to form and using overhang the line loop does not widen too much. Making rod bend enough makes it possible to use very wide casting stroke without widening line loop too much and rod is bent using lots of force and/or heavy line.

 

Yes competition casting is very different and lots of force is used to increase distance but it can be fun and has kept me in good fishing condition. It did improve my fishing casting skill when I began but not anymore because rods and line heads are longer what I use for fishing. But there was about five year period I used mostly TH rods when fishing salt water and it can be very windy here when fishing sea run trout and that time my TH rods did shorten from 15ft to 11ft. I fished also Pike using TH rod and big fly needed a very heavy line which was too hard to cast using long rod.

 

Yes when wading deep a longer rod is easier to fish. Perhaps you remember one windy night when only us were out in Brewsters when my 11ft Vision TH rod broke. I was casting almost 700gr line which had been OK before but then after I tied a very big profile slappen fly I believe it did hit water behing me too much and it broke the rod.

 

Heavier than 800gr line begins to be unnecessarily heavy even for me and my short rods. I have used 10ft rod and cast 1000gr line when fishing enoumous fly and very strong wind only two or three times. When I test your previous 14ft I did think I would have lined it close to 700gr.

 

Esa

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Just a quick, one Esa that 14 is my least powerful 11-12 wt.

 

So what you would make of the 13 x14 wt I can’t get close to guessing.

 

mike

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Mike,

 

When I finally get hands on with that 13/14 my plan is to line it with 840 grain heads, my hope is that it should scream them out there and basically not give a **** about what the ocean or weather are doing. 

 

I've handled your 11/12 wt 12'9" and boy that thing with 530 just rips it out there. I doubt that any human could move that setup quickly enough to overload that rod with that line. If Esa is throwing 700 with that then my guess is he'll be throwing 1000+ on the 13/14wt. That would be something I'd pay to see, what a spectacle to behold!

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1 hour ago, Mike Oliver said:

Tin Boat good strategic thinking.

 

Intreguing is the inconsistency with your TH cast. I get  this to from time to time and it’s frustrating.  If you need to go back to your TH if your shoulder gives you gip again hopefully you can work out reason why and press it back into device again.

 

Tight lines

 

mike

The reason for inconsistency is lack of concentration. If/when my mind wanders away from the mechanics of TH casting, the results are pathetic.

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15 hours ago, GregPavlov said:

Why do you call it a "surf/switch" rod?

It is called a "Surf" rod by Beulah, but in the 7/8w version (11' 4 piece, around 6oz) I personally consider it to be a switch rod because of its rather short length.   Other manufacturers have called their short TH rods "Beach" rods (Echo has several short TH models labeled Beach rods).   The ones that are under around 11.5' or so are generally termed switch rods by the majority of the community that fishes them out here in the Pacific NW which is where I am.  We fish them in salt, fresh, flats, wherever we can or want to. 

 

Unlike someone here who criticizes these rods as inadequate (which they may be for use in "serious out front conditions") I believe that they have better potential - when lined properly and in the right conditions they are fine tools. 

 

Like other 11' - 11.5' 7/8 (ish) weight rods, the Beulah 7/8w "Surf" rod is actually plenty light enough and short/nimble enough to use single handed, albeit occasionally, but it is not intended to be a single hand rod exclusively (hence - in most sessions you "switch" back from single hand back to two hand use pretty quick).   When using single handed, over any length of time, one must keep the butt of the rod firmly anchored to your forearm, which with a 7 weight 11' rod is fairly easy to do if you have good forearm and wrist strength.  One can even single or double haul if one likes to do that.  I wouldn't recommend this for everyone though.  It takes some getting used to but is a modality that works.

 

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To reduce the wrist stress when single hand casting a Switch Rod putting the bottom handle inside shirt/jacket is one neat trick to increase forward cast force. Then the handle stay against the forearm increasing back cast force as well.

 

Esa

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Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, RedGreen said:

Mike,

 

When I finally get hands on with that 13/14 my plan is to line it with 840 grain heads, my hope is that it should scream them out there and basically not give a **** about what the ocean or weather are doing. 

 

I've handled your 11/12 wt 12'9" and boy that thing with 530 just rips it out there. I doubt that any human could move that setup quickly enough to overload that rod with that line. If Esa is throwing 700 with that then my guess is he'll be throwing 1000+ on the 13/14wt. That would be something I'd pay to see, what a spectacle to behold!

Red

 

It was the 12-13 you handled not the 11-12. The 12-13 is ok for around 750.

 

No matter how much rod and how much line the ocean and the wind will decide what is doable.

 

I once fished a surf beach in Montauk in a serious blow. I was casting a 3oz Kast Master. I made the cast and then in awe Just watched the wind pick it up and practically bring it back over my head.

Me and my buddy laughed and retreated from the beach to get coffee.

 

Mike

Edited by Mike Oliver

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Come on Killie don’t be Coy I have no problem with you quoting my name as the person who says Switch rods are inadequate for serious Out Front usage.

This for me means the NE Coast. Elsewhere they could be just the ticket and based on their popularity they have to be.

Problem is that you do not currently have any point of reference as to what a really powerful TH feels or performs like. Even RedGreen will admit that some of his preconceptions had to be modified  after getting hands on experience and in tough conditions to.

 

It depends what you expect from your rods and what your own aspirations are.

 

Mike

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