Theflyguy

Two hand rods for the salt

231 posts in this topic

On 6/21/2018 at 0:54 AM, GregPavlov said:

My primary rod for a long time has been the 11' CND Atlantis/Oceana.

Me too.

 

I have a badly torn labrum in my casting shoulder. The two-hander takes some strain off the shoulder, I'm in much less pain at the end of the day as opposed to the days when I use the single-hander.

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23 hours ago, Stripsettter said:

Besides the TFO Pandion and Beulah Opal Surf, are there any other “factory” rods that are recommended? I’ve been fishing the BeulAh Opal 9/10 with 500-550 gr lines and like that it’s a shorter rod, it casts well but I’m looking to try something else.  Would consider 1pc customs as well. If anyone has any suggestions.

I would like the Opal better, I believe, if it had a stiffer tip.

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15 hours ago, Mike Oliver said:

Many guys are reluctant to venture beyond 11 feet which is a great pity.

 

We lose many of the added benefits of a TH when we go short.

 

Mending  is one and casting distance the other.

 

Very short TH Out Front I see very little point in.

 

To know you have to do. So it’s good to get some time in even with a borrowed rod that maybe is  not 100% suitable so you understand the requirements and can make a more learned choice when it comes to deciding what rod is right for you.

 

If you dont do this then it’s all about pontification and listening to the opinions of others who maybe are  just repeating the opinions of others to. This happens a lot with TH fly rodding Out Front. It must do as you see precious few of us out there. LOL.

 

Mike

I believe I have been using TH rods, including rather long ones, for as long as you have and I prefer shorter ones.  It's as simple as that.  Which doesn't mean I may not change my mind in the future (just as you may).

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3 hours ago, pescatore said:

Me too.

 

I have a badly torn labrum in my casting shoulder. The two-hander takes some strain off the shoulder, I'm in much less pain at the end of the day as opposed to the days when I use the single-hander.

Are you planning on surgery eventually?   A friend of mine went through rotator cuff surgery and the healing time is now stretching out to an entire year. That's hard to fathom, an entire striper season lost.

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Basically freshwater anglers will match the length of the rod with the width of the river, it is all about controlling the way your fly tracks across likely lies. You are not normally stripping your fly although that may have changed as tactics evolve. So my learning curve started on Spey with a 15' through action rod fishing a DT #10 floater or medium sinker, pretty standard fare 40 years ago. Moving to stiffer, faster action rods with modern Spey lines was a revelation and I can see no reason why these should not be used in the salt they also OH cast very well with shooting heads or a suitable WF line, they are out there. I have used such rods in the UK with no problems. You must be able to buy a quality secondhand 15 footer in the US for small money, getting a matching line could be a problem, but you can always sell it on at no loss if you don't like it. 

Never seen a salmon angler attempt to land a fish while waist deep in the river, work your way to the shore every time.

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12 hours ago, GregPavlov said:

I believe I have been using TH rods, including rather long ones, for as long as you have and I prefer shorter ones.  It's as simple as that.  Which doesn't mean I may not change my mind in the future (just as you may).

Greg

Points taken on board. Easy to do that as you have done it. It’s the guys who have not that I have problems with.

 

Ok I do have at the back of my mind a constant niggle about trying to develop an 11 footer. Not a general purpose rod as I don’t think it is long enough but one for casting really heavy lines in very extreme marginal conditions where distance is not on the agenda but fishing still is.

The other niggling question balancing this one is the one that wonders if anyone is interested in taking on the extra challange and seeing it as a fun thing to do rather than wearing a hair shirt on a hot day with no beer.

 

Mike

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Posted (edited)

4 hours ago, essexalan said:

Basically freshwater anglers will match the length of the rod with the width of the river, it is all about controlling the way your fly tracks across likely lies. You are not normally stripping your fly although that may have changed as tactics evolve. So my learning curve started on Spey with a 15' through action rod fishing a DT #10 floater or medium sinker, pretty standard fare 40 years ago. Moving to stiffer, faster action rods with modern Spey lines was a revelation and I can see no reason why these should not be used in the salt they also OH cast very well with shooting heads or a suitable WF line, they are out there. I have used such rods in the UK with no problems. You must be able to buy a quality secondhand 15 footer in the US for small money, getting a matching line could be a problem, but you can always sell it on at no loss if you don't like it. 

Never seen a salmon angler attempt to land a fish while waist deep in the river, work your way to the shore every time.

Alan

 

I tried Spey rods . Even the Sage TCR would not do what you are saying these rods can do. 

Any TH within reason can do it when it’s nice conditions.

 

We don’t take ten weight single hand rods to small streams so why do we think /believe that TH rods designed for air borne and water borne anchored casts are the ticket for Out Front usage.

 

Been there worn the very old Tee shirt. It is in tatters.

 

Mike

Edited by Mike Oliver

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13 mins ago, Mike Oliver said:

Alan

 

I tried Spey rods . Even the Sage TCR would not do what you are saying these rods can do. 

Any TH within reason can do it when it’s nice conditions.

 

We don’t take ten weight single hand rods to small streams so why do we think /believe that TH rods designed for air borne and water borne anchored casts are the ticket for Out Front usage.

 

Been there worn the very old Tee shirt. It is in tatters.

 

Mike

Plenty of inlets I fished in CC would be perfect for fishing with the various Spey casts and they handle heavy flies quite well, ever cast a brass tube fly? Their ability to throw a long line OH is also there but you will have to get the right lines sorted, agreed they were not designed for OH casting nor for SW work. So what is it exactly you are saying that a Spey rod won't do? OK punch a line into a 30 mph head wind is one but then I will turn up the morning after the wind drops a tad and take my chance then or move elsewhere. probably more suited to fishing the fly swing style rather than the rip and strip. Trying to carry out splash and go or water anchored casts in a heavy swell or breaking waves could prove impossible. I reckon 90% of the time I spent in CC would have proved more productive with a DH rod and I never fished Out Front with anything else just not a 15 footer. I found the only limitations were the amount of running line I could keep untangled  and the occasional wave dragging everything out of the line tray. We don't use line trays on rivers because we don't need them, well I don't. There is not one rod made suitable for all the tasks required in striper fishing but a DH will prove an effective weapon.

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Alan

 

Out Front no they won’t do. On the inside they can do great. Most guys are fishing on the sounds or inside with single handers. A few withTH rods.

 

I would not fancy casting a brass tube fly OH. Skagit would be best but I don’t fish brass tubes in the ocean and thankfully my own rods won’t spey cast for toffee. If they could they would be binned.

 

You have to fish a Back Side beach to get a real understanding of the requirements. Also it’s not the same fishing at HT as lower in the tide when you will be faced with lines of waves coming at you.

 

Agree no one rod will quite do it all. But a Beach Surf Fly design will cover more bases and more conditions than a rod designed for rivers.

 

It was a shame that we never got to fish together in the Cape only S. Ireland.

 

Mike

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No I would not want to cast a brass tube OH either although I might have been daft enough to try, Spey only. Never tried Skagit so no comment. If your rods don't Spey cast then they can't roll cast very well either and what do you do when you want to change direction quickly? 

Don't know what you mean by a Back Side beach is that something to do with wearing a rubber suit? Understand about wave patterns at various states of the tide but having hiked a couple of miles you either fish what you find, move or go down the pub.

Define a Beach Surf Fly rod design. Ask a dozen blokes that and you will come up with different answers and they will all be right.

 

Think you were out there at the same time as me but to tell you the truth I met up with very few if any fly fishermen who were not Brits.

Maybe next year not getting any younger.

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I've handled Mike's rods. I have used them alongside a TH rod I built myself, which is basically a TCR 9129 but even faster in action.

 

There is no comparison. Mikes rods roll cast better and while he says they cannot Spey cast they are very easy for me to do a snap T to get the line in the air and out of the water. They don't Spey cast (double, single Spey, snake roll) because the loads we use compared to the rods power is much different than for typical spey rods.

 

I like my TH with a maximum of 525 grains, for spey it would be significantly more. Mike's rod for 525 grains is even more powerful than mine is, and would probably need 700+ for Spey casts. That's why they don't Spey cast well with our lines, they're just too light. Spey casts can work, but the whole point of these rods was to throw heavy lines with the same speed as our single handed rods. That means they need power to throw a heavy line, power to dominate it in harsh weather, and power to resist bending under their own weight. 

 

Spey rods load deeply in casting, much more deeply than ours do. If ours load deep then when we really need to punch it they'll fold in half and bottom out. Mike's TH for 525 can easily handle 650 when it's calm, but we underline them because we need extra fortitude to punch that line into the heavy winds that make single handed rods almost futile. The casts aren't long and impressive but no matter the conditions we're always able to fish. 

 

If we wanted a Spey rod for out front fishing it would have to be capable of throwing probably 800+ grains in Spey casting minimum to even be worth considering. That same rod would probably be good up to 500-550 maybe. That's the issue, rods powerful enough for Spey casting won't be powerful enough for the conditions we want to fight with. 

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RG I totally get it with the different grain loading between OH and Spey, I usually subtract about 10% from the recommended Spey loading to arrive at a starting point for an OH cast. My Spey lines vary from about 60 ft to 80 ft and usually weigh a lot more than the recommended Spey weight, that is the weight of the entire belly plus tapers, basically you are not loading the rod in the same way with a Spey cast as an OH cast no way would I use the same Spey line for OH casting and no way would I want to Spey cast in  high winds or heavy surf. 

I would guess that the blank you built from was overrated at 1-5 oz I would hate to hit it hard with a 5 oz load. Rods that lock out are desirable when beach casting because you know that all the input you are putting in is speeding up the lead rather than just bending the rod. Never experienced this with a fly rod. I do have a TCR 9129 and rate it about 600 grains, Mike would argue, but it will be used for rock marks as well as beaches where there is no OH space. so it will be Skagit or Scandi or WHY. 

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Eight of ten 15ft "Spey rods" I have are capable to OH cast 850gr and few even heavier fly line very far but I can't time my peak force just right. My back cast is so bad that I can't say how bad my forward cast is ;)

 

When I need to cast to strong wind I won't cast lighter line or use longer rod than I use when conditions are nice.

 

Few guys have OH cast 850gr floating shootingn head over 50m inside which means without tail wind help using 15ft Spey rods because there are no better rods for fly line distance casting and just heard a longest cast outdoors is now 82m :)

 

Mike, we will see huge distances in August World Champs... :)

 

Esa

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Since there has been mention of surf rod and Carp blanks being used as TH fly rods for OH casting ,I decided to try my 10’6” St. Croix Legend Surf rod(rated 1-4 oz):) Taped on fly reel and using floating heads 550gr Wulff Ambush and 570 gr Airflo Rage. I was surprised how much line I could cast throwing big poppers. Managed a few schoolies as well.  I think I can cast it further than the Beulah Opal I have been using. Granted the rod doesn’t flex much with those lines and I got tired of muscling the casts, I was into fish so it was all good. It’s a very light rod as far as surf spinning goes but it’s ridiculous as a fly rod. I’m going to try a cheap and light 12 ft carp rod too.

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Posted (edited)

Tried the same thing with a 5 piece Daiwa Ardito Travel Surf rod (11') in Medium Heavy (2-6oz) Handles around 100 grains more than the Beulah Surf 9/10 (also 11') - that's the original Beulah model not the Opal.  So around 575 to 630g seemed "just about right" for O/H vs. 475-530g or so for the Beulah. The nice thing about the Ardito is that there is no collector guide on the short butt section; and so it is just the spinning reel seat on the handle that needs to be removed (or, a second reel seat added on the reverse side of the butt, which then is used 2 ways) to make an 11' surf spin/fly outfit.   IMO, the somewhat short TH length of 11' is not the problem for me as much as finding heavy enough lines for it.

Edited by Killiefish

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