ccb

improving the way your fly swims

22 posts in this topic

I was reading the bottom lines of Otshawytsha post and found this interesting ?   do any of you guys do this? 

 

One thing to look at is when you take these for a swim, do they swim with the hook point down or do they ride sideways? If they do, you can tune fly by snipping off some hair on the bottom of the fly--just trim a bit. That helps to reduce drag down there and improve swim, etc. 

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, ccb said:

I was reading the bottom lines of Otshawytsha post and found this interesting ?   do any of you guys do this? 

 

One thing to look at is when you take these for a swim, do they swim with the hook point down or do they ride sideways? If they do, you can tune fly by snipping off some hair on the bottom of the fly--just trim a bit. That helps to reduce drag down there and improve swim, etc. 

I have a lake in the back yard, everything gets tank tested. If it doesn't track straight, than the fly is useless (with the exception of EP or kinky muddler style synthetics). I keep an old pair of anvils in my bag just in case, but haven't needed them in a very long time.

Edited by Local66

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you can trim it,  until you figure out that the bulk of the material should be above the hook shank for the direction you want it to ride.

 

if its riding sideways then your hook is too small, trying going up two sizes at least.

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Good point Aquacide about hook size. Trimming the hair is a way of balancing the materials basically, albeit after the ideal point, which would be when tying. 

 

By the way I was speaking about bucktail collared flatwings generally pretty big flare-wise so there is a lot of drag on these when they get in water. And as to method, I'm not notching the flies but just going in with clippers or even teeth and removing 5 or 10 hairs from general area of the bottom of the shank, and then seeing if that makes better. 

 

I try to get the balance correct when tying but if I don't this is the next best thing.  

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By the same principle, you can make your fly swim hook point up by simply tying in all the material on the bottom of the shank. It helps to bring flare it out a little bit, such that the clumps of material follow a line from the eye of the hook to the point, but it's the same idea.

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3 hours ago, RedGreen said:

By the same principle, you can make your fly swim hook point up by simply tying in all the material on the bottom of the shank. It helps to bring flare it out a little bit, such that the clumps of material follow a line from the eye of the hook to the point, but it's the same idea.

Great point. 

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I make a couple new patterns and test swim them

 

i tinker with placement of epoxy or even a bit of lead if necessary 

 

I also consider the leader thickness and knot used

 

the hope is that I can figure it out so that I get a reliable result before making a couple dozen 

 

I give away the duds. The guys using them as teasers love them 

 

ive been playing with a darter for a number of years and I still don’t like it

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Scaling your hook to the amount of material you have and the size of your fly has everything to do w/ how well it swims as well as how easy it is to cast.

Too many flies,esp bigger bucktail deceiver types, are tied w/ too small a hook and the result is that the fly won't track true and turns on it's side when being fished and not having enough weight to deliver a bushy fly w/o the leader collapsing.

If you have to trim material away to make it swim right, tie it on a bigger hook next time.

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Hadn't thought about the effect of hook weight on casting for a given amount of bushy material. Will try that out. Thx.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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On ‎4‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 3:19 PM, Otshawytsha said:

Good point Aquacide about hook size. Trimming the hair is a way of balancing the materials basically, albeit after the ideal point, which would be when tying. 

 

By the way I was speaking about bucktail collared flatwings generally pretty big flare-wise so there is a lot of drag on these when they get in water. And as to method, I'm not notching the flies but just going in with clippers or even teeth and removing 5 or 10 hairs from general area of the bottom of the shank, and then seeing if that makes better. 

 

I try to get the balance correct when tying but if I don't this is the next best thing.  

If your Flatwings are exhibiting a lot of drag, then you are not making your collar sparse enough.  A properly tied Flatwing will track hook point down using an Eagle Claw 253 or 254 hook. which is extremely light wire.  This is a deliberate element in the fly design, as it is intended that these flyes (even the 7+ feather Razzle Dazzle and Squid Flyes) suspend in the water column, thus allowing them to be fished with a mended swing in the current, towards any bass that are finning, while facing into the current.  

 

Attached picture is that of a September Night Fly, and 2 variations of Rich Murphy's bomber suspending in fresh water, noting that in salt water it will ride higher, as the water density is higher - I had to lightly hold the Night Fly in order to get a clear picture..

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2 hours ago, FlatWing said:

If your Flatwings are exhibiting a lot of drag, then you are not making your collar sparse enough.  A properly tied Flatwing will track hook point down using an Eagle Claw 253 or 254 hook. which is extremely light wire.  This is a deliberate element in the fly design, as it is intended that these flyes (even the 7+ feather Razzle Dazzle and Squid Flyes) suspend in the water column, thus allowing them to be fished with a mended swing in the current, towards any bass that are finning, while facing into the current.  

 

Attached picture is that of a September Night Fly, and 2 variations of Rich Murphy's bomber suspending in fresh water, noting that in salt water it will ride higher, as the water density is higher - I had to lightly hold the Night Fly in order to get a clear picture..

 

 

 

 

Flatwing, I don't know. I think  even with moderate amount of drag flies, tied not incredibly sparsely but not too full but with imbalanced materials, can ride offkilter.  

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One of the "practice makes perfect" aspects of Flatwing tying, that will have the effect of causing the fly to suspend on its side, is that of the feathers not being aligned perpendicular to the bend in the hook, and/or having a twist in the shaft of the feather close to the base of the feather.  The more feathers you stack, the larger the risk of this occurring becomes.  I personally have found that I get better results if I dub another pillow onto the shank after installing 3 feathers with their accompanying flash. (This is a trick I picked up from Kenny A.).  By the way, feathers with the aforementioned twist neeed not be discarded, but can be used for a shorter length tail by stripping the stem below the twist.

 

I've seen a spun deer head fly that is basically a snake fly with the sided trimmed flat.  Also, Enrico P. ties his EP Fiber flyes with only enough material on the sides to hide the hook, while like Steve Ferrar tying with his Flashblend, the top and bottom of the hook are hi-tied.  These flyes track upright.  I'm not sure what hook Enrico uses, but Steve bend the shank of a Mustad 34007.  Pictures attached. 

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Flatwing I think the shape of the flatwing is more important than the weight of the hook point and bend in getting it to ride correctly. Like you say, the flatwing tends to ride bend down. Although many flatwing tiers into SM adamantly say their flies ride perfectly level and also "suspend" as you were claiming above, while holding the fly in your fingers "lightly". The TM monks were able to "levitate" as well. It consisted of jumping off the floor. 

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You need to read a post a little more carefully before responding.  My mentioning of the weight of the hook and bending of the hook WAS NOT in the context of how a Flatwing tracks, it was in the context of how Steve Ferrar got his Flash Bend Bunker flyes to track upright.

 

Back to Flatwing tracking, and as a general note your apparent vitriol, vis-à-vis your regard of Flatwings and those of us who advocate the benefits of their use for catching fish on a fly.  I find this a fascinating dichotomy in your posts on this subject, especially since your defending of Lyle's Jersey Coast Ghost as the original bomber imitation incorporated the use of the term Provenance, which, in my 50+ years of exposure to literature, I have only seen used in the context of the origin of collectible, and therefore valuable art and hand woven rugs of Middle Eastern and Far East origin.

 

So enough on the subject of your somewhat strained relationship with the "Striper Moon Cult", and back to the discussion of whether the claims of Flatwings suspending is equivalent to the disproven claims of Transcendental Meditating monks that they could levitate.....Your less than subtle attack on my integrity is obviously based on your belief that I was attempting a subterfuge in my assertion that Flatwings suspend, as I was, as I stated, steadying the fly so as to achieve a focused picture with my Samsung flip up phone.  So I attach the following images, taken just before I logged on, of Flatwings suspending in my bathroom sink filled with fresh water.  Just for you in particular, the first 4 pictures are of the same fly, taken over a period of 6 minutes, untouched by me... I think suspending for 6 minutes, and changing orientation at the same time, might just qualify the SM cult members (and my) assertion, don't you think?

 

The next pictures I took so as to "cover the spread" over flatwings from 3-feather to Razzle Dazzle to Squid Flyes.  Note that all Flatwings in the pictures are tied on Eagle Claw 4/0 254 hooks (UNBENT).  Enjoy, and by the way, I'm done with this thread, and do believe I will no longer choose to participate in any threads in which you insert your Boorish attitude.

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That's surface tension holding those there. Hook on sink bottom. I marked up some pics that I found interesting. NIce flies.. 

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