The Riddler

Swell Scupper 14

136 posts in this topic

I paddle with Jim from Peconic when our wives do Masters open water swim races in LIS. Salt of the earth, that guy. 

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I am the owner of Swell watercraft and the Scupper kayak.  Wanted to jump in this thread-thanks for having me.  The attachment shows where the boat was in 2017 and the changes we made in 2018.  The 2017 version is what Tim Niemier is selling now as the Onwater Scuppro.  The new one is the Swell Scupper 14.  The new version is superior in every single way.  The lowered windage on the nose is minor alteration that makes no difference in performance.  Fire away any questions you'd like answered and I'll do my best.  I split with Niemier because he wasn't getting his work done, which is evident in the fact that the Scuppro kayak is the exact same as when he left Swell Watercraft-no changes.   One big change we initiated is the raised Scuppers-which drain the cockpit in case of a capsize.  This kayak really performs amazingly!  

sCUPPER old vs new.jpg

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2 hours ago, cheech said:

I paddle with Jim from Peconic when our wives do Masters open water swim races in LIS. Salt of the earth, that guy. 

That may be, but apparently he doesn't get his work done and is lousy at kayak design. Just kidding, Cheech. Everything I hear about him is super. Until now.

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2 hours ago, Swell Guy said:

I am the owner of Swell watercraft and the Scupper kayak.  Wanted to jump in this thread-thanks for having me.  The attachment shows where the boat was in 2017 and the changes we made in 2018.  The 2017 version is what Tim Niemier is selling now as the Onwater Scuppro.  The new one is the Swell Scupper 14.  The new version is superior in every single way.  The lowered windage on the nose is minor alteration that makes no difference in performance.  Fire away any questions you'd like answered and I'll do my best.  I split with Niemier because he wasn't getting his work done, which is evident in the fact that the Scuppro kayak is the exact same as when he left Swell Watercraft-no changes.   One big change we initiated is the raised Scuppers-which drain the cockpit in case of a capsize.  This kayak really performs amazingly!  

sCUPPER old vs new.jpg

In my experience, the less bow volume you have, the more likely it is to perl in surf. One of the top features of the old scupper pro was it's surf handling. And that big bow was never a problem in wind. If you're worried about wind, raising the freeboard two inches is probably a bad move.

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Posted (edited)

All the focus on the bow is just silly.  The bow is basically the same as it was before-minor change.  In fact we were never "worried" about wind-just added a little improvement to better the kayak.  The Swell bow is larger than the OK Scupper Pro bow.  We were very much concerned with capacity and that was a focus and a reason we added the freeboard- a big improvement.  We were concerned that it started to sink when capsized so we added raised scuppers to drain it.  Concerned about a wet butt so we added drainage for the seat.  Added paddle holders and side grab handles and a live well scupper.  Made the bow hatch dry.  Engineered a drainage valve that will drain your cockpit fairly easily.  Got rid of the internal rudder idea.  Just dialed in the deck and made the hull better too.  The result is speed, safety and stability.  It is indeed the fastest, most narrow rec sot you can buy. 

June_2,2018.mp4

Edited by Swell Guy

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Welcome Swell Guy! Glad to see you're following discussions of your boat. I guess I don't have to forward the dealer recommendations! It sounds like Empire might be a good first choice to call. I think prioritizing a place that can demo is important with such an unusual boat for the current market trends. It's fun to imagine someone demoing a 33" boat and then trying a 25" Scupper.  I don't believe there's any place actually in NYC as you asked me, but I have friends I might reach out to at the Manhattan Boathouse nonprofit, if you were to donate or pro-deal a boat to them it could get a lot of exposure. But it might be too high performance a boat for them.  

http://www.manhattancommunityboathouse.org/

 

Can you comment on that molded recess in the front hatch cutout? Is it a battery compartment as I guessed? I'm also confused as to what you mean by "raised scuppers",  can you elaborate?

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The cutout in the bow hatch was supposed to be a tray for the oval hatch, however it doesn't fit right now.  It will need to be modified if we want to make it fit the oval hatch.  So a whole bunch of nothing there for now....

 

The raised scuppers are scuppers above the waterline.  When you capsize and flip the boat back most of the water drains out these scuppers.  They are located right in front of your feet.  This is a necessary alteration from the old boat, so any debate about Swell vs. Onwater Designs should end right here.  The old boat held water like a tub, this one drains allowing you to re enter and paddle away.  

IMG_1967.JPG

P1100475.JPG

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Posted (edited)

8 hours ago, Swell Guy said:

All the focus on the bow is just silly.  The bow is basically the same as it was before-minor change.  In fact we were never "worried" about wind-just added a little improvement to better the kayak.  The Swell bow is larger than the OK Scupper Pro bow.  We were very much concerned with capacity and that was a focus and a reason we added the freeboard- a big improvement.  We were concerned that it started to sink when capsized so we added raised scuppers to drain it.  Concerned about a wet butt so we added drainage for the seat.  Added paddle holders and side grab handles and a live well scupper.  Made the bow hatch dry.  Engineered a drainage valve that will drain your cockpit fairly easily.  Got rid of the internal rudder idea.  Just dialed in the deck and made the hull better too.  The result is speed, safety and stability.  It is indeed the fastest, most narrow rec sot you can buy. 

June_2,2018.mp4

Glad the bow volume is the same, but somebody here reported that you had changed it substantially.

 

What's this about the kayak sinking? Capsized means upside down. How would scuppers affect an upside down kayak? 

 

I am pretty sure the fastest, most narrow rec sot kayak you can buy is either a stealth, or a kaskazi. Sorry. However, in USA made boats you may be a contender.

Edited by kross57

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8 hours ago, Swell Guy said:

The raised scuppers are scuppers above the waterline.  When you capsize and flip the boat back most of the water drains out these scuppers. 

...

..

.

This is a necessary alteration from the old boat, so any debate about Swell vs. Onwater Designs should end right here.  The old boat held water like a tub, this one drains allowing you to re enter and paddle away.  

Can you elaborate here......I'd think when you capsize "raised scupper's" would actually be more prone to allow the boat to hold water once it's flipped back over more so than the traditional foot scupper  positioning being it cant drain freely thru [4] scuppers, with a paddler still in the water an empty kayak sits higher so that water in the cockpit remains.........  At that point its up to the 2 "valved"  seat scuppers to drain the boat which is definitely a slow process.......

 

 

Looks more like the raised scuppers were a necessity with a  25" width,....... Even with nominal paddler weight added to the cockpit it would drop the boat significantly deeper than a wider boat & these scuppers & the valved scuppers  actually keep water from filling up the cockpit when paddling.

 

Am i missing something here???

 

 

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Bill, I believe the idea of the raised scuppers is that they can drain water far faster than the valved below water line scuppers, allowing most of the water out of the cockpit very quickly if you are flipping it back over after capsizing or taking a major wave over the gunwale.

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looks like they're positioned about half way down from the gunnels & the deck floor...... 1/2 the cockpit will still be filled with water, You're still going to be sitting in water that remains below that raised scupper line until the valved ones drain the rest.....however long that takes.

 

I have zero experience with a 25" kayak but wouldn't the raised scuppers & valved scuppers be more advantageous in keeping water out with nominal to top end weight under normal operating conditions?

 

I'm guessing the slim kayak will sit lower in the water once loaded up a bit......

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, Swell Guy said:

All the focus on the bow is just silly.  The bow is basically the same as it was before-minor change.  In fact we were never "worried" about wind-just added a little improvement to better the kayak.  The Swell bow is larger than the OK Scupper Pro bow.  We were very much concerned with capacity and that was a focus and a reason we added the freeboard- a big improvement.  We were concerned that it started to sink when capsized so we added raised scuppers to drain it.  Concerned about a wet butt so we added drainage for the seat.  Added paddle holders and side grab handles and a live well scupper.  Made the bow hatch dry.  Engineered a drainage valve that will drain your cockpit fairly easily.  Got rid of the internal rudder idea.  Just dialed in the deck and made the hull better too.  The result is speed, safety and stability.  It is indeed the fastest, most narrow rec sot you can buy. 

June_2,2018.mp4

As a long time paddler and fisherman, I'm very grateful for what you're trying to do with this design. The market really needs it. Until now, we were looking at fiberglass kayaks to get this level of performance.

 

For a boat with these performance characteristics, the deck layout seems extremely well thought out. I don't see anything else that can compete with the top side.

 

On other hand you can't beat fiberglass on weight, but you can beat it on durability.

 

The deciding factor will have to come down to the hull. Do you have any hydrodynamic data that you can share to see how it compares to other fast(er) hull designs?

 

And at the end of the day, we'll want to sit in the kayak. Hopefully that possibility will be available soon

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54 mins ago, BillZ said:

looks like they're positioned about half way down from the gunnels & the deck floor...... 1/2 the cockpit will still be filled with water, You're still going to be sitting in water that remains below that raised scupper line until the valved ones drain the rest.....however long that takes.

 

I have zero experience with a 25" kayak but wouldn't the raised scuppers & valved scuppers be more advantageous in keeping water out with nominal to top end weight under normal operating conditions?

 

I'm guessing the slim kayak will sit lower in the water once loaded up a bit......

 

 

 

Logical. They’re coming from the perspective of initially having 2 valved scuppers to having 2 valved scuppers AND 2 additional venturi-type scuppers ... so, in their minds there is a significant improvement to the initial design whereas we are assessing it from a first time view. The combination of valved and raised scuppers should reduce the wet bum effect AND be faster draining than just 2 valved scuppers ... it’s the compromise between wet bum and draining speed in the event of tipping. Geez that was a bit rambling

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56 mins ago, BillZ said:

looks like they're positioned about half way down from the gunnels & the deck floor...... 1/2 the cockpit will still be filled with water, You're still going to be sitting in water that remains below that raised scupper line until the valved ones drain the rest.....however long that takes.

While yes, the  raised scuppers do appear to be vertically halfway down,  notice the entire console, and possibly part of the seat, is at or above that level, making the volume below the raised scuppers far less than the fully open space above.

 

This is not unlike the approach Kashkazi takes with having very narrow footwells around a large center console hatch reducing the volume of the cockpit minus the paddler to very little space for water. If a Dorado takes a wave filling the cockpit there really isn't that much free volume for the water to stay!

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We consider Stealth a surf ski, not a recreational sit on top. Kaskazi looks like a ski too, and I'm not certain there are dealers in the USA.  But the definition of recreational, etc can be debated.  We can make a fiberglass version if someone wanted one.  It's $3995 though....

 

The raised scuppers(above the waterline) drain the cockpit down to about 3 inches of water.  It's a necessary safety item.  They also drain off any waves that hit the bow.  The lowered valves drain the last 3 inches of the cockpit only when paddling forward.  We really need to get a video made on this, but we've sold 45 of these kayaks and are shipping out the first ones and very focused on that right now.  Video to come.  

 

If the cockpit gets swamped the raised scuppers do most of the draining.  The lowered ones do the rest of the draining.  This is tough for a chat room-we need to get these boats out to the stores!  More to come from us-this is a new concept, unlike anything on the market today.  

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