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Thin Stone Veneer

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#1 bigwilly11189

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Posted April 14 2011 - 12:44 PM

In a few weeks or so I'm planning on putting thin stone veneer over my existing brick (long bricks) fireplace. Only roughly 18 sq ft worth of stone as I'm only going up to the mantel. Now the bricks are not red as it appears a prior owner painted them grey. The paint is not glossy at all and they are not smooth. My question is, do I need to put a metal lath over the brick before a scratch coat, or do you think I can put a scratch coat directly onto the painted brick? As I mentioned, I originally thought it was a grey stone b/c I had never seen long bricks, but then I looked underneath the mantel and saw the red. Oh and I plan on using: Quikrete Polymer Modified Veneer Stone Mortar (No. 1137). Here's a horrible picture of how the brick looks:

#2 longcaster

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Posted April 14 2011 - 7:57 PM

When I Google the name you provided, I get the following information from the manufacturer;

QUIKRETE® Veneer Stone Mortar – Polymer Modified (PM) can be
used as a bond coat, scratch and brown coat and as a mortar joint
grout over concrete and masonry surfaces or galvanized, expanded
metal lath. QUIKRETE® Veneer Stone Mortar can also be
manufactured with integral color for mortar joint applications or by
adding QUIKRETE® Stucco and Mortar Color (No. 1319), available in
20 standard colors.
Application Instructions
The application of Veneer Stone Mortar is intended for use over
galvanized diamond-mesh metal lath (2.5 or 3.4 lbs per sq.yd., 1.4-
1.8 kg/m2) and two layers of grade D water resistant building paper or
over solid bases such as masonry, stone,
cast-in-place or pre-cast
concrete. Installation over these surfaces shall be in accordance with
ASTM C 926 or local governing building codes.
Concrete & Masonry Surface Preparation
Prior to application over unpainted and unsealed concrete and
masonry surfaces
, all loose material, dirt, dust, grease and
efflorescence must be removed. Paint and sealers must be
completely removed
or galvanized metal lath and grade D building
paper must be secured over the surface
Dampen the concrete, masonry or scratch coat substrate with a fine
spray of water, but do not soak. Use a trowel to apply a ½†(13 mm)
mortar base of Veneer Stone Mortar or completely cover the back of
the veneer stone with ½†(13 mm) of mortar. Stone must be set within
30 minutes of applying mortar bed. Press the veneer stone firmly into
the mortar bed in a twisting motion. Joints between stones should be
a consistent ½†(13 mm) or less.

In the pink section, it says; if you don't strip the paint from the bricks, you need to put up Grade D building paper and fasten Galvanized metal lath to the surface.

It does not say skip removing the paint, and skip installing the metal lath.

How do you plan to secure the building paper and lath to your bricks, so you can install your veneer stone properly?

#3 float finish

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Posted April 15 2011 - 3:52 PM

Thoroseal Thorobond. Apply as directed. Rich mortar mix scratch coat. Rich=less sand,more mortar. Not real wet either. Wouldn't hurt to scale paint before applying Thorobond. There are similar bonding agents on the market. Thorobond is the best.

#4 bigwilly11189

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Posted April 17 2011 - 7:02 PM

@Longcaster - I do not need building paper as it is not going against a wood backer, it is existing interior brick, thus at the most I will only need to attach some metal lath to the existing brick, which I would attach with concrete screws into the mortar between the bricks and not the bricks themselves. I did read the MSDS sheets on the product and I appreciate you pasting the info above, but I guess I just figured that "painted" surfaces implied shiny, glossy smooth cinderblock and not this rough brick texture, so that is why I was asking. I guess no one can give a good answer without looking at the actual brick.

@float finish - I have not googled that product yet but is it a "binding agent" that I add to the Quikrete mortar mix to strengthen the bond? This stone veneer I think only weighs around 10lbs / sq feet and its only going about 4 feet high so it wont have much weight on it, so that is why I was hoping I might be able to skip the metal lath. But I Might just go the metal lath route just so I dont kick myself in the long run for not doing it up front...or I'll take a wire brush to the brick first, wash (wait for it to dry), then apply mortar scratch coat.... OH the decisions.

#5 float finish

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Posted April 19 2011 - 6:11 AM

Thorobond is brushed onto substrate. 2 coats for that application. Lathe would also work but you are going to want to shoot nails into mortar joints which will probably bubble lathe as nail drives lathe deeper than surface of brick. Build a platform under bottom of area to receive stone. Piece of plywood on floor,measure and snap lines to replicate area to receive stone veneer. Fit and cut stones dry on plywood. Then mix mortar and start.
I don't need to do that,but I am a pro. If you choose lathe there is a up and down on lathe. Or you can use small diameter hammer drill bit and use regular masonry nails thru lathe into mortar joints. Kinda like a small pilot hole. If I tell you any more of my tricks I am gonna have to send you a bill.

#6 gadwall8

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Posted April 19 2011 - 8:06 AM

If the paint is well bonded, clean the brick with "liquid sandpaper" and use a high quality, no sag, modified thinset. Let cure for 48 hours before grouting.

Laticrete makes several suitable mortars.

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#7 bigwilly11189

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Posted April 19 2011 - 12:14 PM

Thanks. I think i'm gonna go without the lath. Also this will be drystack so no grouting

#8 longcaster

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Posted April 19 2011 - 9:22 PM

Big Willy, the instruction said both building paper & lath over painted brick.

It did not discuss what the brick was painted with, just painted brick.

To do the best job, use paint stripper and a wire brush and get as much of the paint off the bricks.

What that will do is open up the small holes in the brick so your mortar/cement will stick better. Cementing and screwing the lath to the brick will give you the best job.

Not cleaning the paint off the brick means the cement will not stick to the brick. Because the cement won't stick putting building paper & metal lath up anchored to spec will also give you a firm surface to use to hold the stone veneer.

You are so close to doing the job the way the manufacturer recommends. Good luck

#9 NIB

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Posted April 21 2011 - 7:22 AM

You guys are mind fn this little job to death.
I had to jump in bfor i fell out of my chair.
Take a grinder with a diamond wheel..and a vacuum..
Simply cut some scratches into the paint with it.Get a good latex modified thinset.The most expensive one at the depot type stores has the most good stuff in it .It should stick to the paint on it's own...I would scratch it up with the grinder to be sure..Coat ( flat trowel) the brick with it.Mix it thick so it does not droop out of the brick joints This is fun on the shoulder..,..Let it dry and stone any bumps down.Install the thin brick with same thinset..If I had to do it in one day I might omit the flat trowel coating part..
The problem with tar paper an wire is it will be hard to get the wire tight on that small stone surface..Tappy hollow mud is not good.If you wanna add the wire a bonding agent applied to the stone with no tar paper might be better.This is not a good method for large area's..But it is more that fine for this fireplace..You could also add the wire and coat it with the mentioned thinset.
You could also just thinset and nail some hardibacker on there.Use the 1/2".. the 1/4" might crumble on ya..Setting the stones with the same thinset.It will dry up fast for ya an they might even hang without drooping..
They just did the facade of a DD by me like this..With the same stones.

The problem with building it out with any product is the space you will get on the inside corners of the firebox if you don't wrap the stone around the corner.
Plus it is all overcooking the bird in my opinion.I hate a over cooked bird..Dry and lacking in taste..

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