Jeep W/ a check engine light on

[ferret]

If your go to mechanic cant determine the exact problem, ask if he can do a leak down test.

[CHIEF500]

OK, spoke with Scott. I went through the whole thing with what happened with my Jeep. He listened and said I've never seen one with that needed the head replaced without some damage to it from no oil or something like that. The engine doesn't wear that much,,, so he's calling BULL---- too. He'll look at it Wednesday, he wants to look at the cylinder in place to see what kind or tolerances. He was talking about hooking air up to it and checking it . So I guess he's doing what Wes wanted to do. He hooked it up to the reader and it still is saying No. 8 cylinder misfire. He read the computer pushed some buttons. He thinks it's a injector problem. He has an injector cleaner he likes to use, it's two cans ya hook it up the car runs through the stuff and then shuts off.
I called the dealership I was dealing with and put off the appointment with them. I'll find out more neat week. He said it's fine to run as it is.

[wizardude]

Great Sounds good, and no need to feel like you have to rush, and fix it right away...

[MoparCharlie]

Originally Posted by CHIEF500

OK, spoke with Scott. I went through the whole thing with what happened with my Jeep. He listened and said I've never seen one with that needed the head replaced without some damage to it from no oil or something like that. The engine doesn't wear that much,,, so he's calling BULL---- too. He'll look at it Wednesday, he wants to look at the cylinder in place to see what kind or tolerances. He was talking about hooking air up to it and checking it . So I guess he's doing what Wes wanted to do. He hooked it up to the reader and it still is saying No. 8 cylinder misfire. He read the computer pushed some buttons. He thinks it's a injector problem. He has an injector cleaner he likes to use, it's two cans ya hook it up the car runs through the stuff and then shuts off.
I called the dealership I was dealing with and put off the appointment with them. I'll find out more neat week. He said it's fine to run as it is.

Two can system....sounds like BG fuel injector cleaner. This is good stuff too. If it is carbon buildup on the back of the intake valves this should take care of that problem.
A dealership gave you that info?......wow but I'm not that suprised.
15 years ...worked with at least 100 "mechanics".... aint but 5 I'd trust to work on my car.
Best of luck to ya.

[fishn808]

I'm calling BS on the dealership too.

How can you tell if you have bad valve guides without opening the valve covers, taking off the rocker arms, valve springs/retainers/seals and checking for excessive wear? If I'm not mistaken, I think it's an overhead cam engine, so there may be more to pulling the rocker arms than on a push-rod engine. If you do a leak-down test, that should give you an idea of the condition of your rings, guides and seals. I don't think you can determine which of the three are bad without taking apart the top portion of your head assembly.

[wizardude]

Originally Posted by fishn808

I'm calling BS on the dealership too.

How can you tell if you have bad valve guides without opening the valve covers, taking off the rocker arms, valve springs/retainers/seals and checking for excessive wear? If I'm not mistaken, I think it's an overhead cam engine, so there may be more to pulling the rocker arms than on a push-rod engine. If you do a leak-down test, that should give you an idea of the condition of your rings, guides and seals. I don't think you can determine which of the three are bad without taking apart the top portion of your head assembly.

Actually there is an easy test, that you do every time you start up in the morning, with a cold engine. Just gotta look for it.. when your valves guides wear, or most times just get harder over time, as your vehicle cools down oil will get by the seals, and drip in the cylinder. The result is, in the morning at first startup, watch for smoking for the first 15 seconds-to a couple of minutes. You'll know the difference between oil smoke and cold/condensation my the smoke having a bluish tint, as well as a very unique odor. If bad, you'll get a little sta, sta, sta, studder as well, that slightly revving the engine will quickly get rid of, until the plugs are fouled.

Overhead cam, does not elevate push rods in this case, they still apply... though most no longer need adjustment.

That's what grips me about mechanics any more... Don't get in and "just" fix the problem, just "chunk" the whole works, and buy new Vehicle maintenance is ridiculous these days! These couple examples are minor, checked shock prices, could do them for about $250 myself, top of the line/period. Get a price from the mechanic, hey I'm not in such great shape these days, OEM (another work for junk in this application), $$900$$
A $160 to replace disc brake pads (front/or rear)! $12.95 "Lifetime" brake pads, and 45 minutes, if you screw off for 20 minutes.... Get real! Take a class, isn't passed on like in my day, and the premium is garage space. If you got that, your golden...

[fishn808]

I agree. I've had dealers insist on the solution to a problem "cause that's the code that comes up on the computer" only to be found totally wrong after spending big bucks on their so called solution. I had one dealer charge me close to $1K to trouble shoot repeated fouled plugs that they insisted was due to bad injectors. I found the problem myself - a pinched return fuel line. Why was it pinched? The dealer replaced a fuel pump/fuel sending unit in the fuel tank a week or so earlier and pinched the hose when reinstalling it. Burns me up everytime I think about it.

The blue smoke on start up is a good indicator of oil leaking into the cylinder. Bad valve seals could also be the culprit. In any case, I really don't think the dealer took note of this - probably just drove the Cherokee into the repair bay and hooked up the analyzer. It's hard to imagine worn valve guide with only 77K on the engine, unless it's an inherent problem with the design of the head/engine.

Chief - please post a reply when your mechanic finds to be the problem.

[MoparCharlie]

Guys, you are not on target here. You are refering to valve stem seals but calling them guides. The guides are the metal part of the head that the valve stem moves up and down. The oil leakage you are refering to is from the valve stem seals.With the advances made in seal technology there are very few valve stem seal issues any more. If you have valve guide issue the blue smoke you are refering to would be constant smoke,espcially on acelleration and is usually a manufacturing/engineering issue. A prime example of this is the 3.0 litre Mitsubishi engine from 87-92.The valve guide,which is a different material from the aluminum head, would crack the bottom mounting in the head and the guide would drop down causing an oil leak into the combustion chamber. Notice any old Mopar with the 3.0 litre badge on the fender and you will see the smoking issue a bad valve guide will cause. I will bet almost anything that the issue Chief500 is having is carbon deposit on the intake valve related. He said the first shop swapped the injector so if this is true you can eliminate the injector as the culprit. The cleaner that his mechanic wants to use not only cleans the injector but also cleans the top side of the valve itself. That's why I am saying that this may fix his problem. Furthermore if you had a valve stem seal the oil that leaks into the comustion chamber would cause the emissions to be too high which would be picked up by the oxygen sensors as rich mixture which would cause he computer to lean out the mixture which would eventually turn on the check engine lite and store a fault code for a rich mixture for the side of the engine that had the bad seal. People the vehicles of today are not the same as 20 years ago.

[DaveCap]

Originally Posted by MoparCharlie

Guys, you are not on target here. You are refering to valve stem seals but calling them guides. The guides are the metal part of the head that the valve stem moves up and down. The oil leakage you are refering to is from the valve stem seals.With the advances made in seal technology there are very few valve stem seal issues any more. If you have valve guide issue the blue smoke you are refering to would be constant smoke,espcially on acelleration and is usually a manufacturing/engineering issue. A prime example of this is the 3.0 litre Mitsubishi engine from 87-92.The valve guide,which is a different material from the aluminum head, would crack the bottom mounting in the head and the guide would drop down causing an oil leak into the combustion chamber. Notice any old Mopar with the 3.0 litre badge on the fender and you will see the smoking issue a bad valve guide will cause. I will bet almost anything that the issue Chief500 is having is carbon deposit on the intake valve related. He said the first shop swapped the injector so if this is true you can eliminate the injector as the culprit. The cleaner that his mechanic wants to use not only cleans the injector but also cleans the top side of the valve itself. That's why I am saying that this may fix his problem. Furthermore if you had a valve stem seal the oil that leaks into the comustion chamber would cause the emissions to be too high which would be picked up by the oxygen sensors as rich mixture which would cause he computer to lean out the mixture which would eventually turn on the check engine lite and store a fault code for a rich mixture for the side of the engine that had the bad seal. People the vehicles of today are not the same as 20 years ago.

Exactly, I had the 3.0 in my Montero, loved the truck, but that 3.0 drove me nuts.
Apparently the guides were pressed in and eventually loosened. Had them fixed, with some time of upgrade where I believe they added clips to keep them from sliding down.
Hey MoparCharlie, what's your take on Seafoam, I've done it in my GC 4.7 and also got the white smoke. I believe it worked, I puored it into one of my vac lines till the engine stalled, let it sit, then started it up again.
I think that's how I did it, got the advice on Jeepsunlimited.
Was like a smoke grenade. Truck runs great, 107,000 miles.
May want to do it again, looking for your take on it.

[CHIEF500]

Something else came to mind after talking with Scott for about an hour. He is no longer with the dealership I used to deal with here in Bucks County. The service department was the ONLY reason I went back there with all my vehicles. They were good honest people at the top and the mechanics were good people too. Scott was a technician that used to run to bays for them. The staff changed up some and he had some problems with the new people wanting to do it differently than what he saw as the rignt way to do business. After 20+ years working for them working the two bays most of the time he got out and opened his own place. I finally found him.
He was talkiing about one of the new guys that would deceive the new service manager and customer and do stuff to the car that wasn't needed.
After calling the new dealership that wants to do the new head. I recalled what the service writer said over the phone when I cancelled my appoinment for next week with them. She said Tom had two other engines to do major repairs on and they would have had mine in and done but now they didn't have to push to finish the other two to get to mine. Is the new mechanic beefing up the repair costs to help himself and the dealership stay in business? How many major engine repairs does a guy do a week and a decent size and location dealership?
Any input?

[MoparCharlie]

Originally Posted by DaveCap

Exactly, I had the 3.0 in my Montero, loved the truck, but that 3.0 drove me nuts.
Apparently the guides were pressed in and eventually loosened. Had them fixed, with some time of upgrade where I believe they added clips to keep them from sliding down.
Hey MoparCharlie, what's your take on Seafoam, I've done it in my GC 4.7 and also got the white smoke. I believe it worked, I puored it into one of my vac lines till the engine stalled, let it sit, then started it up again.
I think that's how I did it, got the advice on Jeepsunlimited.
Was like a smoke grenade. Truck runs great, 107,000 miles.
May want to do it again, looking for your take on it.

I've never heard of Seafoam. I'd just be careful about pouring liquid of any sort into the intake of an engine. Air compresses a liquid does not. Too much
to fast and you'll hydrolock the engine which will usually bend the connecting rod....BIG $$$$$.
I recommed what I know and use. For the average Joe I'd reccomend the Mopar Combustion Chamber Conditioner. It comes in a spray can and is easy to use. I guess any "upper enginer cleaner" is better than none at all. If the Seafoam works for you, great. I just cant comment on something I do not know about. I'll tell you what, I will be looking for it to see what it's about.

[fishn808]

MoparCharlie - nah, I know the difference between valve guides and seals. It's been a while since I tinkered with the internals of an engine - I had a '68 Cougar with a 302 that I tore apart and rebuilt at least three times. Did the same with a '90 Mustang.

Carbon fouling? Wow, I guess some of the same problems we had when I wrenched haven't gone away. Do they still use bronze valve guides in aluminum heads? If they go bad, do they still knurl them or do machine shops redo the guides? "Back in the day" we used "perfect circle" teflon valve seals for better sealing - do car manufacturer's have better products now? Not sure if this would be cheaper than replacing a whole head. Hopefully the fuel injector cleaner cleans the suspected carbon build-up. Do guys still use ATF to clear carbon fouled valves? I suspect not, since this might foul the O2 sensor.

This thread brings back both fond and foul memories. Hearing an engine purr after a fresh re-build - Rebuilding a carburetor on the side of the highway because of a blown power valve or clogged jets - Getting your timeslip and seeing a 1/2 second gain after fussing with your car for two whole weeks -

[MoparCharlie]

Originally Posted by CHIEF500

Something else came to mind after talking with Scott for about an hour. He is no longer with the dealership I used to deal with here in Bucks County. The service department was the ONLY reason I went back there with all my vehicles. They were good honest people at the top and the mechanics were good people too. Scott was a technician that used to run to bays for them. The staff changed up some and he had some problems with the new people wanting to do it differently than what he saw as the rignt way to do business. After 20+ years working for them working the two bays most of the time he got out and opened his own place. I finally found him.
He was talkiing about one of the new guys that would deceive the new service manager and customer and do stuff to the car that wasn't needed.
After calling the new dealership that wants to do the new head. I recalled what the service writer said over the phone when I cancelled my appoinment for next week with them. She said Tom had two other engines to do major repairs on and they would have had mine in and done but now they didn't have to push to finish the other two to get to mine. Is the new mechanic beefing up the repair costs to help himself and the dealership stay in business? How many major engine repairs does a guy do a week and a decent size and location dealership?
Any input?

Well this is little tough to answer. First lets just say that writers like to emelish the truth. They might consider maintance work that totals up to alot of hours "major" work. Major engine work is usually under warrantee and doesn't pay that well(flat rate). With that said the norm might be 1 or 2 major engine jobs a week tops for one tech. Most major engine jobs will take a full day and maybe more to complete so I can't see someone getting burried job after job. Remember if the tech is constantly getting hammered by warrantee engine work he is probably not making much money compared to doing "gravy" service work. Most of your better techs will be looked out for and the service writer will spread the warantee work around or at least space the warantee work out so the tech will have an opporunity to make some money on the service work. To me it sounds like the writer was stretching the truth a bit for what ever reason,wether it was to get you to leave the vehicle or to make you comfortable knowing thatthe tech working on your vehicle was compenent, even though his diagnosis proves otherwise.
As far as the new mechanic beefing up the repair....it's possible.
Just take your diagnosis as an example. I would never condem a cylinder head as quickly as he did. I would have gone with the decarboning procedure as a first step. He is changing everything. My bill=$150...his bill $1500+. Will his fix the problem? If it's carbon build up...yes(as long as he doesn't mess something else up in the process). Will mine? Most likely ...at 1/10 the cost will alot less room for mistakes.
This is probably why your mechanic left. There was no more supervision of the techs. If someone was watching this guy they may have recommended that he try something else before a big $$$ repair. For a mopar tech not to know about carbon build up on intake valves it leads me to belive that he has not been with Mopar for too long. Do some techs sell the same thing on every car wether it is needed or not?....absolutely. This is why I had you question WHY. If they cannot explain that in a language that you can understand then go elsewhere.

[Chief2]

Charlie, your experience and knowledge sounds endless, and if I ever have any issues I know where to come.

On a side-note about dealerships, unless you have a fair knowledge, and can "bust" these guys on horrible diagnostics, I would not reccomend ANYONE go there for non-warranty work. I have had many issues with my Honda, most being human error, not the workmanship of the vehicle. It might be a long read, but interesting view on dealership techs.

1st problem. I bought this car from new, and being my first "new" car I performed all the XXX mile services. I know this may not be necessary, but thought it might be a good idea. Had the 15k service done...fine. Shortly after I put 4 aftermarket door speakers and a 4-speaker amp in myself. The Element comes with a 250 CA motorcycle battery, and the speakers were regularly killing it. Well, what can you do to put in a "regular" battery when they have all that ***** plastic tubing through the whole engine compatment, and it's built for a motorcycle battery. So I got my 30k service done, supposedly "checked" my battery during this service. Battery was low on water and dead when I got there to pick it up. Ripped them a new one, got my labor money back because they are idiots. Replaced factory intake with K&N to open up space, then I installed an ambulance battery with 1300 CA and 300 min. reserve capacity at 20 amps. I also got the 4-speakers upgraded and got a big sub, 2nd amp, and mammoth capacitor in. at 45k a different dealership doing the service said they tested my 250CA battery to be ok, said they replaced my air filter(now a K&N cleanable and rechargeable filter) and other ****, obviously didn't do it. Ripped a new one, got some labor money back. After that no more services. Like 5k miles later developed a REALLY!! bad screeching under the hood. Like a belt, bearring, or the like. Was going on a 5-day trip to the OBX so I wanted it looked at and fixed. My warranty went to 60k miles(low and behold others expired at 48k miles, I had like 49k at the time). I brought it to a 3rd dealership to look at it. Called me up and said it was the "water pump". I did not think that a water pump going bad would cause that audible of a sound being buried like it is. They said $600 because that was out of warranty, i said go ahead because I was going on the trip. Went to pick it up, it was NO!!! better, but they said it was fixed and ready to go. Ripped them a new one, service manager said my alternator was also shot. $800 estimate. I said go F yourself sideways. Brought it to my local, was the idler pulley bearring. $90 and parts, FIXED!!!! Went on the trip, all was fine after 2 days. 3rd day get a very slight "rubbing" noise coming from the right front tire. It was only niticeable at VERY low speeds, with the break applied VERY lightly. Breaking hard and driving were fine. Waited til I got back to fix it. Like 3 days before my appointment, driving down the highway(rt. 22 for some of you that know the area) at like 65 mph and the right front tire flew off. Well guess what, when they took the water-pump out they had to remove the wheel to get at it. Well, they only tightened 3 of the 5 bolts on the wheel, and those sheered right off. Then went to a 4th shop to get the work done for that, of which I got every penny out of Honda Corporate for. Lucky I didn't get hurt, or they'd be spilling millions. This company did 4 tires, and the repairs from when the tire flew off(mostly just fender damage and a new rotor). Well 3 weeks later, the front right wheel bearring was shot. jerks didn't even look at the bearrings.

So if you read it, that's how I feel about Dealerships. I have been through 4 dealerships, not one of them did good work, and their diagnostics were ALL far less than even adequate.

[CHIEF500]

OK, here we go.
When I left Scott's Friday he had reset the check engine light. The check engine light came on the next day.

I dropped the Jeep off at Scott's shop this morning. He let it sit and cool. He put the computer (a better one that gives more info than the one Friday) on it and it pointed to a fouled cylinder again and it was number 8 again. He called me right after lunch here's the news. There was oil on the spark plug for cylinder 8, no coolant just oil. He did a bleed down test and it was bleeding through. He also checked the compression and it was fine. He recommends taking the head and sending it out to have it machined. The guy he sends his stuff to has rebuilt this engine for his own truck. He'll check it out and gives a recommendation to fix the problem. Scott will then check with him to see if he thinks the left side should be looked at or it will be OK as is. So the truck gets dropped off Sunday night (after a weekend at the beach) to have the repairs.

Comments please.